Worrying attendances

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GB72
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Re: Worrying attendances

Post by GB72 »

glenn wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:22 pm Back in the real world, if the players for an England appearance only took say £10k.... The other 10k could be filed out to the championship clubs?
There are so many ways that you could spread funding better between clubs and players. As another example, if you capped individual wages at £250k which is not an insignificant amount, clubs could afford to have a number of additional players in the squad, increasing depth and also helping player welfare but those top earners are not going to sign up for that even though I suspect that, realistically, that is probably the maximum a club should be looking to pay any player under current finances. Top players call for improved player welfare whilst demanding wages that restrict squad sizes and ensuring they get their international money and guaranteed rest periods.

Sadly clubs will always try and one up each other by looking to poach the best players. If the clubs actually got together and set a maximum that, for example, they pay international players and that was based on club availablity, the RFU would have to act. Suddenly the England players, stripped of their high salaries for half a season of work, would start looking abroad and that would impact on the England side as a whole or players may have to think about how many international matches they make themselves available for. Not quite sure how we got to a situation where clubs pay England internationals the highest wages and then let them not play for the club for half a season whilst they get paif another £200k plus on top. They have got their cake and are eating it.

I know it is a bit off topic but I feel that the whole relationship between clubs and international squads needs to change to improvve the product and overall marketability of the game and so help increase attendance.
ourla
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Re: Worrying attendances

Post by ourla »

Kitson in the Guardian picks up the theme although to be frank I don't think he does anything to enhance the "clear vision".

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... ugby-union

I asked these questions earlier in thread and nobody answered and they weren't covered in Kitson's artcle either:
  • What is the long term trend?
  • How are viewing figures looking?
  • What sort of attendance should be expected/targeted/required?
jgriffin
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Re: Worrying attendances

Post by jgriffin »

Above all in the short term it's cost of living. We gave up our ST as we have dogs and often no cover (oh for the days of the earth terrace...), but also we have to factor in petrol and associated costs. We are quite happy to take the dogs to watch Burntwood, a five minute drive away. We are likely to come to some games if the current fuel rip-off is resolved favourably.
I miss it a lot, Mrs G less as she thinks the era of entertaining rugby is over (although I think her idea of entertainment was Julian White thumping someone).
In the longer term, I think local rugby will stabilise at a low level for men, but women's has a lot of growth potential yet. As for schools, rugby is the least consideration. When you think some academies have cut drama, music, design and tech, etc etc and there is little time for any in or out of school activity, it's a surprise to find kids actually playing - but there are some, in local clubs. At the pro level, I suspect it is going to mutate into franchises and become a slightly more entertaining version of NFL. I have lost interest in the national team, right old pile of rubbish TBH.
We live in 'interesting times' and we may well have a lot more on our plates than rugby problems.
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Re: Worrying attendances

Post by Hot_Charlie »

glenn wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:22 pm Back in the real world, if the players for an England appearance only took say £10k.... The other 10k could be filed out to the championship clubs?
Sorry, that's not the real world. An England regular can top up their club salary by £200k+ in a season, which partly keeps them from going elsewhere. The appearance fee recognises that these players will sell 82000 tickets at Twickenham for all but two internationals held each year.

Comparisons to the womens' game are misplaced too when it comes to this - until they produce the same commercial draw. The reported cut from £800 to £400 is a PR disaster for the RFU. A figure of £1000-2000 per match should probably be a short term aspiration.
GB72
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Re: Worrying attendances

Post by GB72 »

Hot_Charlie wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:48 am
glenn wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:22 pm Back in the real world, if the players for an England appearance only took say £10k.... The other 10k could be filed out to the championship clubs?
Sorry, that's not the real world. An England regular can top up their club salary by £200k+ in a season, which partly keeps them from going elsewhere. The appearance fee recognises that these players will sell 82000 tickets at Twickenham for all but two internationals held each year.

Comparisons to the womens' game are misplaced too when it comes to this - until they produce the same commercial draw. The reported cut from £800 to £400 is a PR disaster for the RFU. A figure of £1000-2000 per match should probably be a short term aspiration.
I guess my issue is the dichotomy that comes about through playing for England. Pulling on that England shirt means that player then expects and increased club salary for playing a reduced number of games whilst also receiving an extra 200k on top of that and increased opportunity for marketing and promotional revenue. So, England get the player for half a season on a salary of £200000.00 per annum, we get the player for half a year on a significantly higher salary and the player received 2 salaries and increased image rights revenue. So, player gets a good deal, England get a great deal as they get players for sometime less than half price for all the matches they need with no need to pay if the player is injured or out of formand they clubs, they really get the thin end of the wedge by paying the most for the least benefit.

The clubs need the big name players to at least help get fans through the turnstyles but, at the moment, they are being denied that whilst the players and the RFU get exactly what they want whilst the next generation of players will struggle at lower league levels to develop as the funding is not there, all that is injected into the England team to make more money for the RFU
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Re: Worrying attendances

Post by Old Hob »

So, GB72, there is no incentive for the RFU to change. Without positive actions from the clubs, we're stuck with the status quo.
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GB72
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Re: Worrying attendances

Post by GB72 »

Old Hob wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:02 am So, GB72, there is no incentive for the RFU to change. Without positive actions from the clubs, we're stuck with the status quo.
Exactly it. This is odd as I have always seen myself as an England supporter and not at all militant but the more I have thought about this, the more my view has changed. The problem is that it would take all of the clubs to agree and that would never happen.

I would like to see the clubs pay salaries pro rata based on availablilty. You spend half the year with England or on international rest, you get half your salary. On a 400k a year player, that would allow you to only pay out half of that in salary for a full international season and, for the same as you are paying now, have a 200k a year back up. This would then make players look aroad and so the RFU would have to look at the matter or risk losing a chunk of the squad for selection.

The alternative would be for the RFU to limit the amount of England call ups in no World Cup years so they play 6 Nations or Autumn Internationals but not both and the summer tour is classed as a development tour.

Either would help the clubs either save money, have better players or bigger squads in reserve or allow more access ot England players which may help increase crowd numbers.

At the moment, the players and RFU all have sweet deals and the clubs are letting it happen.
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Re: Worrying attendances

Post by chappie »

In my humble opinion I to agree that the current cost of living crisis is a major factor, I would also say why pay all that money for a season ticket when you can stream any game for nothing in the comfort of your own home with friends and a few beers for a fraction of the price!
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Re: Worrying attendances

Post by Nofrontteeth »

Resurrection of a previous thread but linked to the current Worcs/Wasps threads.

I'm watching Canterbury Aukland. A strong national rugby culture.
No need to sell the product but what about the footfall? Big gaps in the crowd. Does our Prem dilemmas reflect the world pro game?
GB72
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Re: Worrying attendances

Post by GB72 »

Nofrontteeth wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:09 am Resurrection of a previous thread but linked to the current Worcs/Wasps threads.

I'm watching Canterbury Aukland. A strong national rugby culture.
No need to sell the product but what about the footfall? Big gaps in the crowd. Does our Prem dilemmas reflect the world pro game?
That is interesting as NZ does not have a football heritage to compete with and rugby is the number one sport. Not sure if they have any history of Friday night games being less popular. Also not sure if the NZ v Aus match tomorrow impacts on crowds the night before.
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Re: Worrying attendances

Post by Nofrontteeth »

Good point GB72. I recognised it a weekday match but did not consider the AllBlacks programme.

That said in 'big ball' competition the:-
Irish have strong Gaelic games and clubs are part of a selective Rugby competition;
Italy v. Soccer;
Aussies v. RL (hence so many league type rule changes) and Aussie Rules;
Argentina v. Soccer.

What's the world picture of a game that keeps trying to grow worldwide?
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Re: Worrying attendances

Post by LekkerTigers »

GB72 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:20 am
Nofrontteeth wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:09 am Resurrection of a previous thread but linked to the current Worcs/Wasps threads.

I'm watching Canterbury Aukland. A strong national rugby culture.
No need to sell the product but what about the footfall? Big gaps in the crowd. Does our Prem dilemmas reflect the world pro game?
That is interesting as NZ does not have a football heritage to compete with and rugby is the number one sport. Not sure if they have any history of Friday night games being less popular. Also not sure if the NZ v Aus match tomorrow impacts on crowds the night before.
Apparently basketball is rapidly growing in NZ and will soon, if not already, be the second most popular sport in the country, just behind football/soccer.
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Re: Worrying attendances

Post by Rugbygramps »

I believe that New Zealand also has a strong rugby league presence.
Just watched that Canterbury Auckland game, and 2 things came to mind, firstly Canterbury have already qualified for the quarters and secondly these aren’t the super rugby sides they are the feeder sides for those.
Last edited by Rugbygramps on Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nofrontteeth
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Re: Worrying attendances

Post by Nofrontteeth »

Following on from Rugbygramps are we to see English Prem clubs as a feeder team league to England?

Yes I know clubs have been acting as such for decades but is that a declared/planned strategy by the clubs? If so is that being sold to any new paying public?
GB72
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Re: Worrying attendances

Post by GB72 »

Nofrontteeth wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:46 pm Following on from Rugbygramps are we to see English Prem clubs as a feeder team league to England?

Yes I know clubs have been acting as such for decades but is that a declared/planned strategy by the clubs? If so is that being sold to any new paying public?
We will never be officially be described as feeder clubs for the national team in the same way that county cricket sides are not described in that way but with the one sided deal with England that benefits the players and the national side to the massive detriment of the clubs, it is pretty much where we are heading.
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