Worcester’s woes

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Smudge
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Smudge »

Central contracts really would be the end of the club game. You only have to look at what that did to cricket.
There is no point in developing players in your academy, bringing them up to international level only to loose them for months on end. The inevitable consequence is a club game full of foreigners, a much reduced academy and fewer chances for our own youngsters. None of us want that.
If the AIs must be played then play them in the summer. Likewise the 6Ns.Outside the league season.
As I said earlier, it is the clubs that are the rock on which the game stands and weakening them will kill the game as we know it.
Let us all hope that Warriors and Wasps survive and the RFU and PRL can sort the international problems between them.
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GB72
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by GB72 »

Smudge wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:14 pm Central contracts really would be the end of the club game. You only have to look at what that did to cricket.
There is no point in developing players in your academy, bringing them up to international level only to loose them for months on end. The inevitable consequence is a club game full of foreigners, a much reduced academy and fewer chances for our own youngsters. None of us want that.
If the AIs must be played then play them in the summer. Likewise the 6Ns.Outside the league season.
As I said earlier, it is the clubs that are the rock on which the game stands and weakening them will kill the game as we know it.
Let us all hope that Warriors and Wasps survive and the RFU and PRL can sort the international problems between them.
Sadly I think that much of the power is now in the the hands of the players. They have the best of both worlds currently, large club salares, large England payments, guaranteed time off and if England want to play more matches, they get more money, play less club rugby and see no reduction in salary. Any attempt to change that is going to face massive resistance and is bound to fail unless the clubs are united. They may want to try and get the French clubs on board as well as they do not even get paid for international absence.
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Rugbygramps »

I am not for central contracts but as things stand I wouldn’t be surprised if things move in that direction.
IMO it is a far bigger issue than something that can be sorted by just the RFU and the PRL. Just to mention one of your suggestions if the Autumn international are moved to summer who are they going to play, as that clashes with the Southern Hemisphere tournament, so agreement from those unions and World rugby would need to be reached too
Smudge
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Smudge »

That is my contention. We should only play the southern hemisphere once a year and then outside the regular season.
Alternate years, here and there. The clubs however must come first.
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jgriffin
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by jgriffin »

O'Toole posted it's in the hands of administrators Begbies, so all official comms now from them.
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tigerburnie
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by tigerburnie »

Sadly with comments like those from O'Toole saying he wants the salary cap to go down further, we will see a seismic shift in the game over the next couple of years, whether that happens or not. With the current financial woes afflicting business and peoples spending, the game as it is will likely become extinct at the profesional level, too many people in the game at the top who do not have the games best interest at heart, two clubs exposed at the moment as being wrongly run, how many more I wonder?
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GB72
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by GB72 »

tigerburnie wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:14 am Sadly with comments like those from O'Toole saying he wants the salary cap to go down further, we will see a seismic shift in the game over the next couple of years, whether that happens or not. With the current financial woes afflicting business and peoples spending, the game as it is will likely become extinct at the profesional level, too many people in the game at the top who do not have the games best interest at heart, two clubs exposed at the moment as being wrongly run, how many more I wonder?
I wish that I could say that I thought you were being overly dramatic but I don't. Well attended clubs are struggling and so I am at a loss as to how any club can survive in the professionlal era with gates of 7000-8000. There is not going to be a TV deal to save the sport either. Everything is tied up in football and we remain, as we always have been, a niche sport with little value to subscription services below international level. Unless the players on 500k salaries are willing to start accepting about a quarter of that, we are looking at a future of central contracts and franchise clubs whose sole purpose is to produce the next generation of enland players or 2 or 3 clubs surviving and going into the Pro 14.
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Rugbygramps »

Unfortunately I agree with both the previous posters, there has to be some seismic change somewhere. There isn’t going to be money from tv deals, crowds aren’t suddenly going to grow by 30% and the international calendar isn’t going to change so the Autumn internationals are played at some other time.
I think we are spoilt at Tigers, I see posts expressing surprise that there was only a gate of 18000 v Falcons, that is the aggregate gate for 3 home games for some clubs. Read somewhere that someone guessed at about 4000 attendance last night, some clubs would think that is ok for a premiership game.

This may sound all very negative but I am just trying to be realistic. Clubs and and their expectations have grown too big, in some instances rich mens play things who have money to burn. Salaries, costs need bringing back under control. This might mean central contracts, might mean regional teams. Trouble is we as supporters are a traditional bunch, we don’t like change, so if any of those things are mentioned arms are thrown in the air.
IMHO we are not far off the stage where it will be either change or disappear as the product we know today. Heaven forbid but if another pandemic were to hit it would be catastrophic.
I’ll finish this off with a conversation I remember having in the early days of professionalism with a locally based member of the RFU committee, where he gave the professional game 25 years before it imploded. He isn’t far off
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Tigerbeat »

Apparently only 600 fans attended the Wasps PRC game last week.....clubs cannot survive on low attendances.
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GB72
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by GB72 »

Tigerbeat wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:04 am Apparently only 600 fans attended the Wasps PRC game last week.....clubs cannot survive on low attendances.
Totally agree, and this is where I think that the league were actually right to some extent when it came to promoting Ealing etc. I understand the the health and safety reasons for needing a capacity of 10001 but there is now a more salient reason. However, good they are, the league does not need more clubs with attendances of 5, 6, 7 or 8 thousand. It needs clubs with attendances of 10 thousand plus and that should not be too much to ask. Harsh I know but I would be happy for the league to look at promoting any clubt that has regular home attendances of 9000 or more and replace teams with regular attendance levels under 7000. The current teams have had long enough to build support and have failed and so it is time to give other clubs a go that are moving in the right direction.

The trigger for central contracts has, I fear, already been pulled. With 2 current England internationals at Exeter looking like they are heading to France, the player exodus has started. When top players are only offered £250k on their next contract or even less, their agents are going to be on the phone to the French clubs for a big pay day. England then either need to drop the playing in England requirement or start getting the central contracts out.

Personally, my thought is that things will go one of 5 ways:

1. Players take the wage cuts and the league limps on as is. I am looking at things as drastic as £150k being the very top end salaries

2. Maybe 4 or 5 teams survice and they will look for places in an expanded pro 14, perhaps partly at the expense of the SA clubs or create a new England/Ireland/Wales/Scotland league.

3. The club game as we know it collapses and we end up with 3 or 4 regions looking for spots in the pro 14.

4. The whole of European rugby re-formats into a larger european competition.

5.Professional Rugby in the UK collapses and we return to a semi professional game.
mol2
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by mol2 »

Not sure denying Ealing or others promotion with sub 10000 grounds when some existing Premiership sides don’t command crowds of significant numbers.
The problems are financial gulf between the divisions and the risk of wealthy benefactors or big sponsors leaving. Lots of smaller sponsors and large gates help to protect from the loss of individual sponsors.
Ultimately teams need TV money and sponsorship or wealthy benefactors to sustain a professional existence.

In the end, in a competitive environment, no team should deserve remain in the top division at the expense of another that has earned its right to promotion. That has to apply every team be they Tigers, Exeter or Ealing.

Central contracts might benefit England in the short term but will hurt the Premiership and will skew competition depending on which players are allocated or released to teams at the whim of England.
Look at what central contracts have done for the leagues in Wales. Do we want to watch Tigers or an East Midlands Region? Only on TV.
northerntiger
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by northerntiger »

Even more so, look what central contracts have done for cricket.
Big worry for me, which hasn’t really been mentioned, is central contracts will probably lead to bigger international payments to players.
That will inevitably lead to more internationals to pay those salaries.
That will lead to less game time at clubs for those players.
I’m sure you can see where this goes........
Rugbygramps
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Rugbygramps »

I’m not for central contracts and unsure how it would work. In cricket I believe the centrally contracted players are still attached to a county, and then released for big games if available or if the player needs game time. I don’t know if there is still a cost to the county that player X is attached to.
The advantage I guess for the clubs is that the salaries of those 30 or so players would be removed, so with tigers for instance if our 6 current England players, if they are on an average of £250k then that is £1.5 million that can be spent elsewhere.
I don’t know what will happen but something has to, no matter how unpopular, as it is quite feasible that soon 13 will become 11 and who knows how many could follow.
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by LE18 »

Tigerbeat wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:04 am Apparently only 600 fans attended the Wasps PRC game last week.....clubs cannot survive on low attendances.
Most Coventry folk hate Wasps, we went over last year when they played us. We sat in seats and next to us 2 guys who said they had had to pay for their tickets even though they had Season Tickets for those seats. How many are going to pay twice for their seat? :smt017
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by jgriffin »

Once Wasps and Wuss are relegated, my money on Cardiff and one other region, prob Scarlets.
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