Worcester’s woes

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sapajo
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by sapajo »

A very sad day for Worcester the players, staff and supporters. Tragic that things have come to this. I wonder how Premiership Rugby are going to deal with the remaining fixture calendar and table points given that Warriors have played 3 games??
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Rugbygramps
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Rugbygramps »

sapajo wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:47 pm A very sad day for Worcester the players, staff and supporters. Tragic that things have come to this. I wonder how Premiership Rugby are going to deal with the remaining fixture calendar and table points given that Warriors have played 3 games??
IMO the fact that Worcester won on Saturday makes that decision harder, as the 2 options were give the opposition a walkover and 5 points for each game, or declare all results null and void.
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Grannyman »

Are they suspended for the duration of the season? Or or possibly back in a few weeks?
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by loretta »

It all reminds me of the time that a controlling interest of Tigers went up for sale. So glad the club vetted the potential buyers and rejected them as "unsuitable".
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by jgriffin »

https://twitter.com/evans_marke/status/ ... d9D_Q&s=19
Evans points out that the whole buyout in 2018, and subsequent cowboy financials, should not have happened with due diligence. From the outset, it was an asset stripping, with the buyout funds raised against the value of the stadium. That last fact should've stopped the deal. PRL, RFU, not fit for purpose?
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

Grannyman wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:56 am Are they suspended for the duration of the season? Or or possibly back in a few weeks?
It is currently only a temporary suspension. If a recovery package comes in then and the new owners can pay players and insurance etc the suspension can be lifted.

IMO today is a big day.

Friday is pay day. To get new owners and finance in, then they really need to pick a rescue package today/tomorrow. Allow the funds to come in to cover wages etc. This time next week if players aren't paid they will be finding other clubs. As soon as a mass exodus happens the club will struggle to retain enough players to fulfil remaining fixtures for the season.

If new owners are in and them and staff can be paid it will likely be only one week or so till they are back. Even if they end having to sell P shares etc to cover other debts they will remain as a club and they have the fanbase to NOT drop through the divisions.

Thing is if the owners had accepted Administration a week or three ago then by now money could be flowing back in to the club and no games lost.
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by jgriffin »

Evans' suspicion was they were buying time to maximise their profit and tie up asset stripping deals.
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Wayne Richardson Fan Club
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club »

jgriffin wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:07 am https://twitter.com/evans_marke/status/ ... d9D_Q&s=19
Evans points out that the whole buyout in 2018, and subsequent cowboy financials, should not have happened with due diligence. From the outset, it was an asset stripping, with the buyout funds raised against the value of the stadium. That last fact should've stopped the deal. PRL, RFU, not fit for purpose?
I have said & thought for sometime PRL are utterly useless.
It's still not obvious if they themselves have discovered any of the Salary Cap breaches & Worcester really shouldn't have been allowed to start the season.
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Smudge »

Warriors were wonderful on Saturday and played far better than their position in the table would expect.
Yes, I wondered if Newcastle held back , feeling sorry for them or if it was one last hurrah.
Whatever, it was very entertaining. After yesterday's news, I can only share their misery.
One thing all the weekend's games proved is that there is nothing wrong with the actual game on the field. Playing in almost summer conditions it was fast, open and great fun. So why aren't the stadiums full?
Many people still away on holiday, they can still watch the game for free on TV, gate prices too high?
Many internationals still away at the start? I could go on.
How do other clubs manage their finances? Are we all spending way above our income?
Saracens are a case in point. Spending zillions on players (and all that went on behind the scenes) with a core support of 7,000 supporters. The classic rich man's toy. It is the antics of that club and why they were allowed to do it that is a major fault IMHO.
"Due diligence", it would seem, is subjective, to the RFU. who have a lot to answer for.
With two top tier clubs in dire straits, it is surely time to call a conference of all interested parties to sort out the way ahead.
Millions of real rugby fans spend their Saturday afternoons at their local clubs and only watch the professional games in the club house later or at home. The only way to change this is to play these games on a Sunday or weekday.. Even then, it is mini/youths on the Sunday morning. These supporters are the backbone of rugby and they are nearly all ex-players, they absolutely must be targeted and persuaded to go and watch the top clubs.
They also have to look at the 6Ns and the AIs. Taking the best players away for months during the season is the height of stupidity. I would keep the 6N but play it at the end of the season or in the summer. The AI's should be reduced to one game before the start of the season. I only want to see the All Blacks occasionally, not every year. The point is, if we don't care for clubs like Warriors and Wasps, we will have no internationals.
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Rugbygramps
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Rugbygramps »

Smudge makes a lot of excellent points.
I’ll just touch on a couple. Yes Worcester were Excellent as they were against Exeter the previous week, hopefully they can only miss one week or 2 at the most and get back on track.

Re the Autumn Internationals the RFU will never drop the Autumn Internationals, the other home unions have them too. They are too much of a cash cow, games v the tier one nations sell out, and even the tier 2 attract 50 or 60 thousand.
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by GB72 »

I agree that they will never ditch the Autumn Internationals and that is indicative of the problem. As far as the RFU is concerned, the purpose of clubs is only to find and develop England tallent for them to take when they want. The clubs are, to a lesser extent, complicit in this by agreeing to pay international players top salaries in full and then let them disappear for half a season to get paid more by England.

An arguable way to get parity is that the £17000.00 match fee paid by England goes to the club, not the player. The club develop them, the clubs are still paying them full wages and so if the clubs then receive the match fee, there is a financial incentive to keep that going and more money to increase squad sizes to cover absent players.

My suggestion for a happy medium though has always been that, with the exception of World Cup years, players can only play in eitehr the Autumn Internationals or the 6 Nations but not both. The summer tour should be used more for development than a full squad. At the moment, any changes in scedules and procedures seem to result in less time at the clubs and maybe it is time to start looking at having less time with the international squads.
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Rugbygramps »

GB72 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:38 am I agree that they will never ditch the Autumn Internationals and that is indicative of the problem. As far as the RFU is concerned, the purpose of clubs is only to find and develop England tallent for them to take when they want. The clubs are, to a lesser extent, complicit in this by agreeing to pay international players top salaries in full and then let them disappear for half a season to get paid more by England.

An arguable way to get parity is that the £17000.00 match fee paid by England goes to the club, not the player. The club develop them, the clubs are still paying them full wages and so if the clubs then receive the match fee, there is a financial incentive to keep that going and more money to increase squad sizes to cover absent players.

My suggestion for a happy medium though has always been that, with the exception of World Cup years, players can only play in eitehr the Autumn Internationals or the 6 Nations but not both. The summer tour should be used more for development than a full squad. At the moment, any changes in scedules and procedures seem to result in less time at the clubs and maybe it is time to start looking at having less time with the international squads.
I definitely agree that outside of World Cup year places should be restricted to a set number of international games per season, say 5, but they can be split over the AIs and 6 nations. Also yes the summer tour should be used as a development opportunity, maybe to countries developing the game. Uruguay and USA for example.
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by GB72 »

Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:52 am
GB72 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:38 am I agree that they will never ditch the Autumn Internationals and that is indicative of the problem. As far as the RFU is concerned, the purpose of clubs is only to find and develop England tallent for them to take when they want. The clubs are, to a lesser extent, complicit in this by agreeing to pay international players top salaries in full and then let them disappear for half a season to get paid more by England.

An arguable way to get parity is that the £17000.00 match fee paid by England goes to the club, not the player. The club develop them, the clubs are still paying them full wages and so if the clubs then receive the match fee, there is a financial incentive to keep that going and more money to increase squad sizes to cover absent players.

My suggestion for a happy medium though has always been that, with the exception of World Cup years, players can only play in eitehr the Autumn Internationals or the 6 Nations but not both. The summer tour should be used more for development than a full squad. At the moment, any changes in scedules and procedures seem to result in less time at the clubs and maybe it is time to start looking at having less time with the international squads.
I definitely agree that outside of World Cup year places should be restricted to a set number of international games per season, say 5, but they can be split over the AIs and 6 nations. Also yes the summer tour should be used as a development opportunity, maybe to countries developing the game. Uruguay and USA for example.
To weaken my own argument though, if we do not send a full squad over in the Summer, the Southern Hemispehere teams will not send over full squads in the Autumn, if they agree to come at all. It is these 2 sets of matches that need looking at and perhaps both should be played with development teams. The argument would then be that they would not attract the crowds. I think the idea of players having to spend a mnimum number of weeks pre and during season available to the clubs would be a better way forward as we are currently picking up on the scraps.

Look at next week, we have only just got our England players back but, rather than spending needed time integrating back into the squads and building relationships with new players, they are off on another England training camp.
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Rugbygramps »

I think Scotland sent a less than full strength squad to Argentina and did ok.

Sticks head above parapet. The crux of all these problems is the lack of central contracts for Englands elite, and until this is addressed so that clubs can plan and budget accordingly, and fans know which players they are spending their hard earned money to see, these issues will continue.
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by GB72 »

Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:51 pm I think Scotland sent a less than full strength squad to Argentina and did ok.

Sticks head above parapet. The crux of all these problems is the lack of central contracts for Englands elite, and until this is addressed so that clubs can plan and budget accordingly, and fans know which players they are spending their hard earned money to see, these issues will continue.
Whilst I feel that central contracts will be inevitable in the future, I can see that as another nail in the coffin for club rugby. The club game will follow county cricket as a feeder league for international matches. With full and free access to the players, the England calendar will only expand to fill the RFU coffers and with training weeks included, we can expect to see less of the players than we already do. I can, for example, see the Autumn internationals becoming a 5 or 6 match event rather than as we have. Expanding the 6 Nations, not a problem if players are relived from club duties. England crickters play next to no county matches anymore and I can see rugby with central contracts going the same way. Unfortunately, as I said, I can see it as unavoidable. Wages will drop in the current club and national financial climate and the RFU will start to sweep in to sign up players on the cheap.
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