Worcester’s woes

Forum to discuss everything that is Tigers related

Moderators: Tigerbeat, Rizzo, Tigers Press Office, Tigers Webmaster

Post Reply
Offside
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 952
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Offside »

The first step is to decide on a level of financial security and sustainability that clubs need to have to continue. If Tigers and Saints meet this then there is no need to have a combined East Midlands team and risk loosing the fans. The issue is what happens about combining low attendance subsided teams into a sustainable London or upper southwest team with Exeter keeping its own identity. The north has some really problems competing with league and football to host any teams. Now I have provoked a few people I will retire to my bunker :smt027
Old Hob
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4095
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:15 pm

Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Old Hob »

The World Cup win was almost 20 years ago so no-one under 25 is likely to remember it. The boost that comes from high profile events needs to be sustained. If you remember, some years ago, Italians suddenly declared themselves in love with rugby after Italy won twice in the 6 Nations. "Better than football" was reported for all the reasons we cite (no diving, arguing with the referee or being a prima donna). But success was not sustained and the support dropped off.

I would be interested to know if there are similar problems in other countries. How do the Italian clubs survive? Is the French model sustainable? It is not a majority sport in Argentina, so what happens there?

I have long maintained that players' wages are too high and, if we are not to lose the game altogether, we need to curb them. A cap on individual wages is almost certainly unlawful (In football that was challenged and broken by Jimmy Hill ) so it has to be a club cap. Whether the rest of the world would agree to join us to stop a player exodus is another matter.
Omnia dicta fortiora si dicta Latina
Rugbygramps
Super User
Super User
Posts: 7196
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:29 pm

Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Rugbygramps »

Other posters have mentioned the marketing of our sport which I totally agree with.
2003 I was involved with junior rugby and yes there was a swell in numbers, however that quickly declined when the physicality of the sport started and wasn’t to everyone’s taste. It suited some parents to use clubs as crèches for 2 hours on a Sunday morning, till it was pointed out it was unacceptable.
Ian mentioned getting players to clubs and schools, again it’s not what it used to be, building on personal relationships asking for a favour, all requests now have to go through the club as every hour is accounted for.
I am not an advocate of regional rugby, just putting it out there as an alternative, many people say they are not in favour, but I can remember back in the mid 90s that professional players were going to be the death of the game but touch wood it hasn’t been.
The game no longer has the support it once had to market to. The number of junior players has reduced, I played for Stonygate through the 80s where they regularly put out 7 sides a week, other clubs were putting out 3 or 4 sides whereas now some struggle to field 1. We used to be in the bar till after 6 then off to the Taj Mahal for a curry. These days players have a quick drink if they’re lucky then home.
Reasons, social priorities have changed the way the family unit is run has changed. More and more people are having to work at weekends so their time and availability are limited.
I think we all agree that work is required, what, much more intelligent people than me need to sort that out. I do know that chucking more money at it currently is not the answer, fans do not have the cash, and with 10% inflation that is likely to remain the same.

Just a final point on geography of the situation, Offside mentioned the North being an issue, it’s interesting that both of the clubs currently with financial difficulties are both in the West Midlands.
GB72
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1439
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:44 pm

Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by GB72 »

I would add as well what watching rugby used to be cheap. Back in my University days we would go to the Tigers all the time and even follow down to Twickenham. These days that would be out of the question and we are now not even much of a cheaper option than the football (if we are cheaper, not checked football prices).

I fully agree that rugby culture has changed and that has an impact and, sadly, I can only see more and more schools and parents moving away from rugby as the concussion case ramps up steam.

That said, I do not think that Tigers are, in themselves, the problem. If every club could bring in 17 thousand plus supporters most weeks then we we would have numbers that would be far more interesting to advertisers and broadcasters. Sadly I just cannot see how any club that brings in maybe 5000-7000 fans a week and has a full time staff and competitive, professional team can survive
Rugbygramps
Super User
Super User
Posts: 7196
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:29 pm

Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Rugbygramps »

We are very much spoilt in Leicester. Not including London and Manchester we are the only city which has premiership football and rugby teams , along with a county cricket side and top class basketball club. There are those of us who can remember when there was top class speedway here too.
Tigerbeat
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7241
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:14 pm
Location: The big wide world

Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Tigerbeat »

GB72 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:58 am That said, I do not think that Tigers are, in themselves, the problem. If every club could bring in 17 thousand plus supporters most weeks then we we would have numbers that would be far more interesting to advertisers and broadcasters. Sadly I just cannot see how any club that brings in maybe 5000-7000 fans a week and has a full time staff and competitive, professional team can survive
Tigers rely on the 11/12 home league games plus European games for revenue. If team numbers were to reduce this would either severely impact on revenue or mean higher ticket prices to bridge the gap.
Very difficult time for all rugby clubs as they are running on losses and this cannot be sustainable for the long term future of the game.
Injuries happen in all sports but head injuries are becoming more highlighted and the authorities are trying to address the cause of these issues.
SUPPORT THE MATT HAMPSON TRUST
www.matthampson.co.uk
Rugbygramps
Super User
Super User
Posts: 7196
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:29 pm

Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Rugbygramps »

Tigerbeat wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:16 am
GB72 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:58 am That said, I do not think that Tigers are, in themselves, the problem. If every club could bring in 17 thousand plus supporters most weeks then we we would have numbers that would be far more interesting to advertisers and broadcasters. Sadly I just cannot see how any club that brings in maybe 5000-7000 fans a week and has a full time staff and competitive, professional team can survive
Tigers rely on the 11/12 home league games plus European games for revenue. If team numbers were to reduce this would either severely impact on revenue or mean higher ticket prices to bridge the gap.
Very difficult time for all rugby clubs as they are running on losses and this cannot be sustainable for the long term future of the game.
Injuries happen in all sports but head injuries are becoming more highlighted and the authorities are trying to address the cause of these issues.
The head injuries thing is interesting. The emphasis is very much on lowering the tackle height and yet in the recent South Africa v New Zealand games both Faff de Klerk and Jessie Kriel sustained serious concussions by tackling Caleb Clark around the hip quad muscle area. These players are so honed these days that one slight mis timing of the tackle and it’s like hitting concrete.
Tiglon
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3870
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Tiglon »

Increase revenue or decrease costs.

My first instinct is always improve the product and increase prices, but they've been trying to grow the revenue for years and it just isn't working.

And the salary cap is due to go back up?

Perhaps clubs like Tigers and Exeter have to accept that they need the other premiership clubs more than they need a £7m+ salary cap. In that case, England might also need to allow their top players to move abroad, or they need to subsidise the clubs to a greater extent.

That said, how much do clubs like Tigers make from playing in Premiership vs Europe? Would they benefit from a smaller league and being more competitive in Europe?

Will we end up with an extended European competition and reduced domestic leagues? Or similar to down under, with regions competing across the continent as the "main" sub-international competition and existing clubs playing a second tier domestic league?
GB72
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1439
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:44 pm

Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by GB72 »

Tiglon wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:27 am Increase revenue or decrease costs.

My first instinct is always improve the product and increase prices, but they've been trying to grow the revenue for years and it just isn't working.

And the salary cap is due to go back up?

Perhaps clubs like Tigers and Exeter have to accept that they need the other premiership clubs more than they need a £7m+ salary cap. In that case, England might also need to allow their top players to move abroad, or they need to subsidise the clubs to a greater extent.

That said, how much do clubs like Tigers make from playing in Premiership vs Europe? Would they benefit from a smaller league and being more competitive in Europe?

Will we end up with an extended European competition and reduced domestic leagues? Or similar to down under, with regions competing across the continent as the "main" sub-international competition and existing clubs playing a second tier domestic league?
I could be wrong but I am not sure that clubs like Tigers and Exeter are the issue when it comes to raising salary caps. I think it is your clubs who have backers with big bank accounts that want to buy the kudos of owning a winning rugby team that want to spend spend spend with higher salary caps.

I certainly think that England need to be pumping more into clubs for the players they select. At the moment the players are borderline around enough to benefit the club on the pitch but would argue that they are not around enough to promote the club off it or are playiung at the wrong times to make the most of the positive press from playing internationals. As such, the time could come where clubs shy away from hiring players with signifcant years of international commitment.
ourla
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4017
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:03 pm

Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by ourla »

Looking through the League most of the clubs are in good health. Not necessarily profitable - although I am not sure what the criteria is here.

Wasps seems to me to be a unique case. Their move to Coventry always carried some risks.

Worcester, Falcons and in the past Irish always seemed to be on the margins a bit but Irish at least have a real home in the capital now.

But aren't the rest all generally fine. Or am I being over optimistic?
Tigerbeat
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7241
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:14 pm
Location: The big wide world

Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Tigerbeat »

ourla wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:12 pm Looking through the League most of the clubs are in good health. Not necessarily profitable - although I am not sure what the criteria is here.

Wasps seems to me to be a unique case. Their move to Coventry always carried some risks.

Worcester, Falcons and in the past Irish always seemed to be on the margins a bit but Irish at least have a real home in the capital now.

But aren't the rest all generally fine. Or am I being over optimistic?
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/premiers ... vc-buy-in/

This was pre-covid and am not sure that it has changed significantly.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -100m.html
SUPPORT THE MATT HAMPSON TRUST
www.matthampson.co.uk
GB72
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1439
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:44 pm

Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by GB72 »

ourla wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:12 pm Looking through the League most of the clubs are in good health. Not necessarily profitable - although I am not sure what the criteria is here.

Wasps seems to me to be a unique case. Their move to Coventry always carried some risks.

Worcester, Falcons and in the past Irish always seemed to be on the margins a bit but Irish at least have a real home in the capital now.

But aren't the rest all generally fine. Or am I being over optimistic?
If Worcester, Falcons, Irish and Wasps are on or over the margins then that is a third of the league and so that is a cause for concern. That impacts on the others as I cannot see too many ready replacements for them with the support or funding and the clubs cannot survive on what would be a reduced number of home matches.

Only Exeter has ever made a regular profit and the other clubs are generally run at a loss. That is not sustainable. Don't forget that covid nearly took us down as well as others.

The game is not growing, schools and parents are shying away from the sport and the crowds at some premiership clubs are pretty risable and not a basis for long term survival.

I think that there are plenty of reasons to be very concerned at the moment and it really does need to be addressed before it is too late.
Wayne Richardson Fan Club
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3825
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:53 am
Location: The Salt Mines

Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club »

How much of the CVC money is bending the profitability lines? That is a finite amount.

You can't have a Pro sport that relies on Sugar Daddies it isn't sustainable.

As for the game it isn't (a lot of the time) a great advert for itself on the pitch.
To win is not as important as playing with style!
TigerFeetSteve
Super User
Super User
Posts: 7351
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:23 am

Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

Even Exeter's profit making is tied heavily into large sponsorship deals from the companies owned by the Rowe family. This is not only Exeter, includes ourselves and Breedon, but even the one on paper that is profitable would struggle if an owner came in without putting money in through sponsorship.

Essentially ownership of a rugby club is not going to generate profits.
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
Hot_Charlie
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4036
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:30 pm
Location: Lincoln

Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Hot_Charlie »

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:24 pm How much of the CVC money is bending the profitability lines? That is a finite amount.

You can't have a Pro sport that relies on Sugar Daddies it isn't sustainable.

As for the game it isn't (a lot of the time) a great advert for itself on the pitch.
Arguably Premiership Rugby failed when it renewed the TV deal too, when BT paid less annually for the rights than they had been previously. That opens up huge questions.
Post Reply