Worcester’s woes

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Scott1
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Scott1 »

Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:00 pm
Scott1 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:57 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:53 pm

I’m sure many people feel the same way Scott, I myself am not a huge fan, but I suppose the question is have 5 regions for example and clubs survive in a 2nd tier, or clubs potentially go out of business with all that entails.

This isn’t a pop at you but it’s easy to say this is a dreadful idea and I would walk away, without giving some sort of alternative suggestion, as the current system is broken and fixes are required.
Yes,the games broken. Something needs to be done. B and I league?
Good call but wouldn’t that involve regions as that is what exists in Scotland Ireland and Wales, or just a fewer number of clubs.
2 proper divisions with relegation and promotion. But essentially its HC games without the French
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Nofrontteeth
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Nofrontteeth »

Initial thoughts to points raised.

Playing in summer? Did I miss the 40 Celsius or last weeks 33?
Agree a consideration but throw in regular fluid breaks required and hard pitch injuries and players and their wellbeing could be deemed at risk.

As a Half breed (maternal side 5 tigers have played for the club and paternal side a Highlander) I'm a very long time Tigers supporter and a passionate Scotland supporter. Do I want to see potentially half the first team resting having either trained or played/ travelled with England? No I don't, and I don't think I'm alone!

As for public exposure through the TV and media my thoughts go back not many years ago as a competitive club cyclist. Seeing the Tours (France, Italy, Spain etc.) or watching track cycling including entertaining 6-day comps was at best a very rare event. Britain didn't rides bikes did they! Then a handful of yellow jersies, Sir Hoys golds etc and now you can watch pro racing nigh on everyday. Even the BBC on Commonwealth, European and Olympics cover can't get enough coverage on TV and Radio. The roads are now full of lycra suited biccies; and remember cycling = mobile advertising boards even Jo Public.

Higher prices including tickets fuels inflation but socially so does falsely high wages. Add 5% to a ticket price and it could lead to a punter 100% not attending.
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Rugbygramps »

No front teeth raises some excellent points. I would question the viewing figures for cycling when Commonwealth/Olympic games aren’t on, and I think cycling is on Eurosport usually due to popularity on the continent.

Yes there are many cyclists on the road, do they really have to take up so much :censored: room, but how much is that down to economic necessity, or work/government incentives
JP14
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by JP14 »

A global calendar would fix a lot of problems, however getting around the old farts, amateurs and the ‘everything has to evolve around us’ Kiwis would prove a very hard task.

The second thing is exposure, the game needs more primetime Free to air.

Oh and proper investment and funding into the second tier, instead of giving bonuses to has-beens on the RFU board.
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sam16111986
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by sam16111986 »

Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:26 pm No front teeth raises some excellent points. I would question the viewing figures for cycling when Commonwealth/Olympic games aren’t on, and I think cycling is on Eurosport usually due to popularity on the continent.

Yes there are many cyclists on the road, do they really have to take up so much :censored: room, but how much is that down to economic necessity, or work/government incentives
When the level of skill shown by the average driver is so deplorably low, yes is the answer unfortunately though it is normally to guard against the one in ten who drive with no care for anyone else's safety as opposed to the majority who seem more likely to pass safely these days.

Cycling has become more popular in this country because of the success or Team Sky/Ineos, propelling British cyclists to fame. Similarly the success of British Triathlon has also increased numbers in what is a very niche sport but has a knock on effect in the number of cyclists.

Being successful and likeable are the normal keys to increasing the level of a sport's popularity.
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Rugbygramps »

JP14 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:45 pm A global calendar would fix a lot of problems, however getting around the old farts, amateurs and the ‘everything has to evolve around us’ Kiwis would prove a very hard task.

The second thing is exposure, the game needs more primetime Free to air.

Oh and proper investment and funding into the second tier, instead of giving bonuses to has-beens on the RFU board.
This idea of more prime time free to air is lovely one but it is never going to happen. BBC doesn’t have the budget through the licence fee, broadcasters that rely on advertising revenue will never attract enough interest for it to happen. The best you could expect would be an 11.30 pm highlights programme.
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Rugbygramps »

sam16111986 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:54 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:26 pm No front teeth raises some excellent points. I would question the viewing figures for cycling when Commonwealth/Olympic games aren’t on, and I think cycling is on Eurosport usually due to popularity on the continent.

Yes there are many cyclists on the road, do they really have to take up so much :censored: room, but how much is that down to economic necessity, or work/government incentives
When the level of skill shown by the average driver is so deplorably low, yes is the answer unfortunately though it is normally to guard against the one in ten who drive with no care for anyone else's safety as opposed to the majority who seem more likely to pass safely these days.

Cycling has become more popular in this country because of the success or Team Sky/Ineos, propelling British cyclists to fame. Similarly the success of British Triathlon has also increased numbers in what is a very niche sport but has a knock on effect in the number of cyclists.

Being successful and likeable are the normal keys to increasing the level of a sport's popularity.
So for example winning a world cup with a down to earth approachable captain and superstar pin up points scorer should have paid dividends
mol2
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by mol2 »

Rugby union is a minority sport in this country in terms of TV audience so can only support a limited professional set up in terms of numbers of players, salaries and teams.

(Arguably soccer too can only support a fairly limited number of teams and below the top two or three divisions is really semi-pro.)

Nothing wrong with that but the benefit of moving it to summer is overstated. It's a winter sport, mud and rain and snow are part of the game. Turning it into Aussie rules or rugby league is not for me. How much money will come into the game by playing in the summer when many are on holiday?
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Nofrontteeth »

Thanks rugbygramps for your response. Re my BBC reference relates to it being free to air viewing.

I agree you can question viewer numbers but it's exposure. I admire gymnastics but I don't take time out to watch it. Yes most sports cover is on Sky, BT, Eurosport etc. including my example of cycling but again it's an exposure for Mattoli Wood etc.

As for numpties on bikes
Being a car driver and long retired cyclist I'm also discusted by cyclists
'undertaking ' car weaving and don't even mention red lights. Unfortunately however over the years I've seen too many killed or injured through incompetent and thoughtless drivers.

As for regions I'm with Scott and many more that it's the local link that makes the bond (no wasp pun intended) not region's. Leicestershire Cricket I follow but do I follow Trent Rockets in the hundred NO!
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

So there are clearly a number of clubs sailing in dangerous financial waters.

In January we had Falcons withholding England players payments (they had lost the matchday revenue from their boxing day game called off due to covid that they probably budgeted having the cash for, but it shows how incredibly tight they were.)

Then we have Wasps who have defaulted on a 35million bond scheme on their stadium, plus issues with the pitch and their community charity having stopped trading.

Then today we have a winding down order from HMRC against Worcester (not the first one, think Falcons last had one in 2018)

There's tricky times ahead.

Personally I think club rugby and the RFU need to sit and agree a plan.

My idea (and it needs real buy in from the clubs and the RFU to work)
Get the 6 Nations sold to Sky/BT/Amazon for the max they can get out of it. Rights for this are likely worth more than the Premiership rights. RFU gives this money to the clubs so they have more financial support than now.

To offset the loss of the free to air 6 Nations there needs to be free to air rugby. Even an ITV4 like the prem final or a random obscure channel. This puts free to air out there, what's more it's consistently on through the year, with the fact this makes it easier to watch than football non sky etc people will watch it. Consistent decent quality rugby on free to air is IMO more important than a few high profile matches over just 2 months
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
Rugbygramps
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Rugbygramps »

Great points TFS. My concern is that you will never get the RFU and Clubs to agree to any such arrangement
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Nofrontteeth »

Reflecting on JP14's global calendar my mind moves sideways to accident risk and the 4 C's.
Control - which world body?
Competence - a constant source of question in this forum
Communication - can you get the Unions to communicate. Union suggests unity!!
Co-operation - RFU, PRC, World Rugby? I currently think fat chance.

To reflect my previous simily re cycling. The UCI stop locally managed high level events calanders from clashing with even higher graded events ie Tour of Britain would not be allowed when the 'big' Tours are running.

Would or could world rugby ever get that level of control and regulation?
TigerFeetSteve
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:24 pm Great points TFS. My concern is that you will never get the RFU and Clubs to agree to any such arrangement
Exactly, despite it likely long term being in their best interests I cannot see it happening
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Ian Cant
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by Ian Cant »

Having supported a Tigers home and away for over 50 years ( though I only got to a few matches during my years of playing, football,rugby,cricket and basketball) I have no interest in a regional game. I have friends, young and old who feel the same way. There is a market and audience out there to be tapped into. More work needs to be done going into schools by the current stars of each club game.
In the days of Johnno, Healey, Stimson, Cokerill and Howard etc, these players often came from training to attend Primary School Tag Rugby Festivals: in my case I also had Pat Howard, Richard Cockerill come to my school to do coaching with classes every week for the Winter/Spring term. Richard Cockerill even did a couple of assemblies. James Overend was a great promoter of the game and I saw a Tigers’ support increase considerably with some children continuing to support the club today along with their own children. Sadly, though Tigers do send coaches into schools actual players coming into them hasn’t continued. It’s only my opinion and from my experience as a teacher, that having current players get involved in schools is one of the best ways to drum up support.
I didn’t go to Tigers’ first John Player Final v Gloucester due to playing commitments, but did attend the Moseley Final: Twickenham was, from what I remember, only about 20% of capacity yet look at recent finals: 80,000.
For many years Tigers away support gave clubs like Quins, Bath, Saints and others their best crowd by a long way. Saints of course always attract great crowds when we play each other and this year’s semi was one of the best club atmospheres I’ve experienced! In recent seasons Quins, Bath, Sarries and Gloucester and Tigers have increased their crowds compared to 10-15 years ago.
The key is in marketing the product: even football doesn’t get good attendances, across all rounds for The FA Cup and Carabau (Spelling!) Cup.
Football will always attract the greater interest.
Andrea Pinchen has and is working wonders at Tigers but we still need to promote our club more. It can be done but not in the way Wasps and Worcester have gone about things!
sam16111986
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Re: Worcester’s woes

Post by sam16111986 »

Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:03 pm
sam16111986 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:54 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:26 pm No front teeth raises some excellent points. I would question the viewing figures for cycling when Commonwealth/Olympic games aren’t on, and I think cycling is on Eurosport usually due to popularity on the continent.

Yes there are many cyclists on the road, do they really have to take up so much :censored: room, but how much is that down to economic necessity, or work/government incentives
When the level of skill shown by the average driver is so deplorably low, yes is the answer unfortunately though it is normally to guard against the one in ten who drive with no care for anyone else's safety as opposed to the majority who seem more likely to pass safely these days.

Cycling has become more popular in this country because of the success or Team Sky/Ineos, propelling British cyclists to fame. Similarly the success of British Triathlon has also increased numbers in what is a very niche sport but has a knock on effect in the number of cyclists.

Being successful and likeable are the normal keys to increasing the level of a sport's popularity.
So for example winning a world cup with a down to earth approachable captain and superstar pin up points scorer should have paid dividends
But it did. It raised the profile of the game massively. If you expected rugby to go from a niche sport to overtaking football then you're way too optimistic. SCW got high profile jobs in other sports, players were on the honours list etc it's still discussed now on occasion and if you ask any non-rugby fans now they'll be able to name check 2003, Johnno, Wilkinson and Sir Clive.

You have to do something to build on that again, again and again. Take triathlon which in 2003 nobody ever talked about. They have goTri events where newbies can race with kids and women's only races to ease people in. In theory it's a more elitist sport than rugby (as you need more kit) but they are working hard to make it feel more accessible. The RFU can't even reach out and get state schools playing the game.

Triathlon has certainly benefited from free to air coverage as well but if it wasn't for the Brownlees and London 2012 it wouldn't get 50% of the coverage it does.
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