Ed Slater diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND)
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Re: Ed Slater diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND)
Not a shock.....the £20k target has been broken already
Re: Ed Slater diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND)
It's difficult to find the appropriate words at a time like this.
My heart goes out to Ed and his family.
My heart goes out to Ed and his family.
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Re: Ed Slater diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND)
Such a shame for the guy.
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
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Re: Ed Slater diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND)
Such a shock - big respect for this fella…. Loved him as a Tiger , remember the turn of pace to score a try at the old Clubhouse Stand - forget against whom and when but remember the try vividly. Go well Ed
Re: Ed Slater diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND)
Top player, top bloke. Very sad news indeed.
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Re: Ed Slater diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND)
Firstly I'd like to say that I have no idea about this stuff at all, being a lowely civil engineer I could design you a nice sewer system but brain disease is well out of my remit!The answer is yes we know there is a correlation. And we know there is more than correlation, there is causation. Not necessarily for MND specifically, but for neurodegenerative disorders more generally. The lifetime "dose" of collisions is the key variable (concussions are bad, but they "look bad", and so get acted on.) here. It would radically change the sport to remove/significantly reduce these collisions, so I will make no comment on what should be done other than to note this issue.
Repetitive insult to the neurons of the brain by physical (and chemical etc) damage is a precondition for Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc. Seeing higher incidences of these diseases, especially early onset in otherwise very healthy individuals (especially individuals with good cardiovascular health, rendering vascular complications less likely), is a lot more concerning than the rugby governing bodies and (most of the) rugby press would have you believe.
ETA: I'd have to check the numbers/literature, but IIRC a 3-fold increase in all neurodegenerative diseases has been observed in contact sportspeople. Don't quote me! It's off the top of my head.
Just watching BBC this morning though and a guy from the motor neurone disease association specifically said there was no evidence or link between MND and Rugby. Although he did say that more research is still on going and rightly so.
Re: Ed Slater diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND)
Thanks for the clarification, even the basic numbers on prevalence seem to be a bit up in the air with this disease.LekkerTigers wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:22 pmIt's actually around 2 in 100,000 persons per year. Or somewhere in the region of 1 in 300-500 people over a lifetime.sk 88 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:45 pmBelieve 6th or 7th. Joost, Doddie, Ed, Romanian scrum half Petre Mitu, Tinus Linee from South Africa plus famously Jarrod Cunningham from London Irish.Rugbygramps wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 3:22 pm Devastating news so sorry for Ed and his young family.
3rd high profile rugby player to be diagnosed with this dreadful disease to my knowledge. Do we know if there is any correlation between these 2 things or just a tragic coincidence
Expected rate is estimated to be 2 in 100,000 over a lifetime.
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Re: Ed Slater diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND)
Ads possibly no connection to Rugby yet, but possibly with higher impact collision sports so Gridiron possibly tooads wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:29 amFirstly I'd like to say that I have no idea about this stuff at all, being a lowely civil engineer I could design you a nice sewer system but brain disease is well out of my remit!The answer is yes we know there is a correlation. And we know there is more than correlation, there is causation. Not necessarily for MND specifically, but for neurodegenerative disorders more generally. The lifetime "dose" of collisions is the key variable (concussions are bad, but they "look bad", and so get acted on.) here. It would radically change the sport to remove/significantly reduce these collisions, so I will make no comment on what should be done other than to note this issue.
Repetitive insult to the neurons of the brain by physical (and chemical etc) damage is a precondition for Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc. Seeing higher incidences of these diseases, especially early onset in otherwise very healthy individuals (especially individuals with good cardiovascular health, rendering vascular complications less likely), is a lot more concerning than the rugby governing bodies and (most of the) rugby press would have you believe.
ETA: I'd have to check the numbers/literature, but IIRC a 3-fold increase in all neurodegenerative diseases has been observed in contact sportspeople. Don't quote me! It's off the top of my head.
Just watching BBC this morning though and a guy from the motor neurone disease association specifically said there was no evidence or link between MND and Rugby. Although he did say that more research is still on going and rightly so.
Re: Ed Slater diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND)
Simply awful news. He was a superb player for us and I loved watching him. As others have said devastating news.
Re: Ed Slater diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND)
Shocked to hear this tragic news and can only hope for the very best for Ed and his family going forward. Heard some talk on Radio 5 live that contrary to a link between head injury and MND it appears that there may be a link between MND and prolonged and extreme exercise.
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Re: Ed Slater diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND)
(Sorry for late reply!)markharbtiger wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:42 pmThanks for this Louis. As a scientist by profession (although not medical), I am alarmed by the causation you mention and what you identify as the key variable.Louis wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:42 pm This is awful news, and my thoughts go out to Ed and his friends and family.
Rugbygramps asked:
The answer is yes we know there is a correlation. And we know there is more than correlation, there is causation. Not necessarily for MND specifically, but for neurodegenerative disorders more generally. The lifetime "dose" of collisions is the key variable (concussions are bad, but they "look bad", and so get acted on.) here. It would radically change the sport to remove/significantly reduce these collisions, so I will make no comment on what should be done other than to note this issue.Do we know if there is any correlation between these 2 things or just a tragic coincidence
Repetitive insult to the neurons of the brain by physical (and chemical etc) damage is a precondition for Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc. Seeing higher incidences of these diseases, especially early onset in otherwise very healthy individuals (especially individuals with good cardiovascular health, rendering vascular complications less likely), is a lot more concerning than the rugby governing bodies and (most of the) rugby press would have you believe.
ETA: I'd have to check the numbers/literature, but IIRC a 3-fold increase in all neurodegenerative diseases has been observed in contact sportspeople. Don't quote me! It's off the top of my head.
Yeah, it's the "head whip" of tackles etc. The continual acts of rapid deceleration that cause damage to the brain. Tackles tend to fold people, so the whiplash effect accounts for a lot of force, people hit the ground a lot, hit rucks a lot etc. An 80 min game of rugby has a large "dose" of "head decelerations", completely ignoring concussions. Then add in, what 30 games a year, 30 weeks of practice sessions minimum. Including full contact sessions, tackle practice...
It's a lot.
And the majority of these people will have been doing contact rugby since age grades. What is it nowadays? Contact gradually introduced from 11? Retire at 35 if relatively injury free. 24 years of what? Conservatively 10 tackles a week on average?
It's a hell of a lifetime series of impacts. People who are genetically vulnerable will be exposed comparatively early. Scary stuff!
P.S. What field are you in?
Re: Ed Slater diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND)
The link between neurodegenerative disorders and the cumulative "dose" of "collisions" over a lifetime is well established. Obviously it's messier than 1:1 correlation/causation otherwise every rugby player would experience it, but contact/combat sportspeople do have a higher incidence than background of neurodegenerative disorders.ads wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:29 amFirstly I'd like to say that I have no idea about this stuff at all, being a lowely civil engineer I could design you a nice sewer system but brain disease is well out of my remit!The answer is yes we know there is a correlation. And we know there is more than correlation, there is causation. Not necessarily for MND specifically, but for neurodegenerative disorders more generally. The lifetime "dose" of collisions is the key variable (concussions are bad, but they "look bad", and so get acted on.) here. It would radically change the sport to remove/significantly reduce these collisions, so I will make no comment on what should be done other than to note this issue.
Repetitive insult to the neurons of the brain by physical (and chemical etc) damage is a precondition for Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc. Seeing higher incidences of these diseases, especially early onset in otherwise very healthy individuals (especially individuals with good cardiovascular health, rendering vascular complications less likely), is a lot more concerning than the rugby governing bodies and (most of the) rugby press would have you believe.
ETA: I'd have to check the numbers/literature, but IIRC a 3-fold increase in all neurodegenerative diseases has been observed in contact sportspeople. Don't quote me! It's off the top of my head.
Just watching BBC this morning though and a guy from the motor neurone disease association specifically said there was no evidence or link between MND and Rugby. Although he did say that more research is still on going and rightly so.
Biology, happily unlike sewer systems (which have saved many a life, huge fan of them! ), is really messy...
...is that the right analogy there Louis?...
...I get very scared about people making claims like "there's no link" etc because it's not that simple. In MND particularly there is a strong genetic component, so genetically "vulnerable" people are more likely to develop disease if exposed to the same neuronal insults. Assuming even distribution of "vulnerability" across the population, you'll see a higher incidence rate of disease in contact sports people just because of that. You don't need a specific "link".
It's like having weak knees. If you take all the people with weak knees and put half of them in a situation where they play a lot of rugby, and half in a much less high impact/safer situation, ceteris paribus you'll see more knee injuries in the rugby group. There's no specific casual link between knee injury and rugby in that direct way, rugby doesn't cause knee injuries, but you are more likely to encounter "knee injuring conditions" in that environment. It's small but important distinction.
Re: Ed Slater diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND)
All that can be said is that there is no proven causal link between motor neurone disease and head trauma. (And there are different types of disease under the moror neurone disease umbrella term.) Again to infer that because some neurogenerative disorders are known to be linked to repetitive head trauma cannot be assumed.
Doesn't mean there is or there isn't a causal link. That takes numbers and time to prove one way or the other. The numbers of MND patients compared to say Alheimers or Parkinson's relatively tiny so bigger studies are required to even show a statistical assosciation let alone demonstrate causality.
What has been shown is an increase in certain types of MND (AMS) in individuals carrying a genetic pre-disposition to AMS in those who take part in strenuous exercise. The study was small and only demostrated a link in those with certain genetic markers. This was in individuals who took part in strenous leasure exercise but it isn't too much of a leap to assume that it applies to theose who do strenous exercise professionally. The increase wasn't shown in those without the genetic markers.
Doesn't mean there is or there isn't a causal link. That takes numbers and time to prove one way or the other. The numbers of MND patients compared to say Alheimers or Parkinson's relatively tiny so bigger studies are required to even show a statistical assosciation let alone demonstrate causality.
What has been shown is an increase in certain types of MND (AMS) in individuals carrying a genetic pre-disposition to AMS in those who take part in strenuous exercise. The study was small and only demostrated a link in those with certain genetic markers. This was in individuals who took part in strenous leasure exercise but it isn't too much of a leap to assume that it applies to theose who do strenous exercise professionally. The increase wasn't shown in those without the genetic markers.
Last edited by mol2 on Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Ed Slater diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND)
I was under the impression that there's a much bigger link to CTE
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer