LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

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FrontRowUnionMember
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by FrontRowUnionMember »

RagingBull wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:43 pm But do big signings win the league?

Or does the overall squad quality win it?
I think therein lies the point. You fill the squad with superstars and they all go missing during Oct/Nov during AI’s and Feb/Mar during 6N. That doesn’t impact your Champions Cup games, but can be to the detriment of league form. There is a balance to be found between top tier players when can give you the edge in big games, mixed with those not quite on the international stage who can deliver all season long.
Our likely best pack is Cronin, Montoya, Cole, Wells, Chessum, Liebenberg, Reffell, Wiese. Strong pack, but during AI’s we could/would lose as many as 5 of that pack, suddenly takes a different shape, especially when you think we could also lose Heyes and Henderson who would be next in line to take starting shirts. Dolly & Martin likewise have been in the mix.
That’s the price of success, it brings recognition for your players, great for them, not so much for the management trying to maintain momentum during international periods. That’s shown the benefit of having Cronin instead of Genge, also having Cole and Ford around consistently when they were out of favour with Jones. Liebenberg is a big asset for the same reason, he is every bit as good as any 6 in our league, but because he’s not on the Boks radar, it’s good for us. Exeter lost their way once their players all started getting international recognition. Sarries managed it for a while, but it would appear through underhand methods. Since coming back up, their squad looks very differently balanced, gone are the days of 4 internationals in Itoje, Kruis, Skelton and Isiekwe all battling for 2 second row slots, now it’s Itoje, Isiekwe, and two younger players in Hunter-Hill and Tizard. They’ve had to cut some big name finished article players in favour of players with potential.
Which brings us back to the additions made yesterday, no World Class players there, some very very astute additions, smart operators in areas of need that will give us the depth to really push for momentum all year round.
Hatherall looks a big abrasive back row player able to offer that dynamic game that we miss with Wiese away, much like Cracknell has shown of late. Shillcock classy operator from fullback who can also cover 10 very nicely, much like Hegarty did to good effect. Bassett is proven, works hard, good technical skills, and good gas to be a consistent try scorer. Don’t imagine any are on big wages, but add nicely to our pool.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by ay2oh »

FrontRowUnionMember wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:13 pm
RagingBull wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:43 pm But do big signings win the league?

Or does the overall squad quality win it?
I think therein lies the point. You fill the squad with superstars and they all go missing during Oct/Nov during AI’s and Feb/Mar during 6N. That doesn’t impact your Champions Cup games, but can be to the detriment of league form. There is a balance to be found between top tier players when can give you the edge in big games, mixed with those not quite on the international stage who can deliver all season long.
Our likely best pack is Cronin, Montoya, Cole, Wells, Chessum, Liebenberg, Reffell, Wiese. Strong pack, but during AI’s we could/would lose as many as 5 of that pack, suddenly takes a different shape, especially when you think we could also lose Heyes and Henderson who would be next in line to take starting shirts. Dolly & Martin likewise have been in the mix.
That’s the price of success, it brings recognition for your players, great for them, not so much for the management trying to maintain momentum during international periods. That’s shown the benefit of having Cronin instead of Genge, also having Cole and Ford around consistently when they were out of favour with Jones. Liebenberg is a big asset for the same reason, he is every bit as good as any 6 in our league, but because he’s not on the Boks radar, it’s good for us. Exeter lost their way once their players all started getting international recognition. Sarries managed it for a while, but it would appear through underhand methods. Since coming back up, their squad looks very differently balanced, gone are the days of 4 internationals in Itoje, Kruis, Skelton and Isiekwe all battling for 2 second row slots, now it’s Itoje, Isiekwe, and two younger players in Hunter-Hill and Tizard. They’ve had to cut some big name finished article players in favour of players with potential.
Which brings us back to the additions made yesterday, no World Class players there, some very very astute additions, smart operators in areas of need that will give us the depth to really push for momentum all year round.
Hatherall looks a big abrasive back row player able to offer that dynamic game that we miss with Wiese away, much like Cracknell has shown of late. Shillcock classy operator from fullback who can also cover 10 very nicely, much like Hegarty did to good effect. Bassett is proven, works hard, good technical skills, and good gas to be a consistent try scorer. Don’t imagine any are on big wages, but add nicely to our pool.
Agree with all of the above. Whenever I’ve seen Shilcock he always looked a very good player.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by Hot_Charlie »

CrumblingTerrace wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:18 pm You wouldn't expect any of those signings to be starting XV players, so we're talking squad depth. I wouldn't disagree with @ TigerFeetSteve's view that they're mostly upgrades, but I think we're talking slim margins here, nothing game-changing.

We've become very churny in recent seasons and it feels like a bit more of that.

Transfers last season was quite low-key across the whole Prem for obvious reasons, but this year we've already got some big signings... F.Russell (Bath), Malins (Bristol), Mercer (Glos), Launchbury (Quins). Let's hope we're keeping pace!
Hatherall I think is interesting as this time last year he was looking at an England call up. Although in his mid-late 20s his growth curve was insane between 2021-2022 when he moved to Worcester (maybe he was out of place at Jersey), though most of that time was spent at 6. At La Rochelle he's been used exclusively in the Top14 and generally at 7.

Depending on the OHC situation Bassett could be a starter.

Shillcock always seemed to be making his way here (somehow) after Worcester's collapse.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by AViewFromLe2 »

CrumblingTerrace wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:18 pm You wouldn't expect any of those signings to be starting XV players, so we're talking squad depth. I wouldn't disagree with @ TigerFeetSteve's view that they're mostly upgrades, but I think we're talking slim margins here, nothing game-changing.

We've become very churny in recent seasons and it feels like a bit more of that.

Transfers last season was quite low-key across the whole Prem for obvious reasons, but this year we've already got some big signings... F.Russell (Bath), Malins (Bristol), Mercer (Glos), Launchbury (Quins). Let's hope we're keeping pace!
I think that it is unfair to call us "churny". In fact I'd say we're nowhere near that.If you look at the squad that is likely to start next season in July you can see:

Whitcombe (will be 4th season being around the first team)
Cronin (2nd)
Montoya (4th)
Clare (5th)
Dolly (3rd)
Cole (16? years around the 1st team)
Heyes (6th season)
Hurd (3rd)
Green (6th)
Wells (8th or 9th, possibly longer)
Chessum (4th)
Martin (4th)
Hanro (5th)
Reffell (5th or 6th)
Wiese (4th)
Cracknell (2nd)
Jansen (3rd)
Youngs (18th?)
JvP (5th)
Pollard (2nd)
Atkinson (2nd)
Kelly (4th)
Scott (4th)
Porter (4th)
Potter (4th)
Simmons (6th or 7th)
Freddie Steward (4th)

That's 27 guys there that form the bulk of the squad and will have been at the club for a while. I've not included the likes of Nephi, Henderson, Phil C or Gopperth who could be / likely to be here next season. Or the 6 senior youngsters who signed contracts this week or the likes of Lewis Chessum or signed his earlier this season, who have been around the first team for the last 2 years. There's another 10-11 who have been here a while. So we're looking at a core of circa 38 guys who in July will have been at the club for at least 12 months - that's pretty good when you look at the quality listed above.

In the age of professional rugby we are going to lose players, but look at who we're likely or possibly likely to lose - Van Wyk, Snyman, Taufete, Ashton, Saumaki, Kini. Many of these are not regulars, they're 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th choice guys, who we're losing to bring in those announced yesterday. These are swaps that I would make every day of the week to upgrade the squad and improve the quality overall.

As for star signings, retaining the likes of JVP, Martin, Freddie Steward, Kelly, Porter & Montoya like we have done in recent months are just as important than, star signings, if not more so.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by northerntiger »

Also, lets remember, apart from Montoya, non of the names quoted above were big stars when they came here. Either academy grads or off the radar signings
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by mol2 »

According to the press Mike Brown is training with us.
Another one for the Welford Road care home!
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by RagingBull »

Reffell and Wiese reportedly don't need new extensions according to Wigglesworth.
So sounds like for me the only worry is Henderson, and Watson's situation.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by ay2oh »

Would love to keep Watson but it’s unlikely.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by Leicestertinytiger »

ay2oh wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:51 pm Would love to keep Watson but it’s unlikely.
Sounds harsh but would rather OHC. Watson had injury issues before and has hardly put those doubts to rest at the club. Think him making a packet in France would be best for everyone.

Henderson I’m hopeful of staying but you never know until an announcement is made.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by ay2oh »

Leicestertinytiger wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:55 pm
ay2oh wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:51 pm Would love to keep Watson but it’s unlikely.
Sounds harsh but would rather OHC. Watson had injury issues before and has hardly put those doubts to rest at the club. Think him making a packet in France would be best for everyone.

Henderson I’m hopeful of staying but you never know until an announcement is made.
keep Watson and sign OHC would be great.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by ay2oh »

No popcorn tonight then.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

ay2oh wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:53 pm No popcorn tonight then.
I dunno official confirmation that were NOT losing any of the following is great news!!

Wiese
Reffell
Welford

Popcorn reason enough for me
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by ABClub »

On the earlier conversation about big signings winning leagues. I think in general your second XV does a lot in getting you to the playoffs and first XVs win playoffs. Hence there being a huge skill in getting the best players fit for the end of the season.

A few years when doing data analysis in cricket a colleague who also worked in rugby said that clubs should have two strong XVs and a third decent pack as an albeit rudimentary outline. If we can retain Watson, Henderson and West then move Martin towards lock we'd be looking at something like below for next season with no more signings.

1.Cronin 2.Montoya 3.Cole 4.Martin 5.Chessum 6.Hanro 7.Reffell 8.Wiese
9.JvP 10.Pollard 11.OHC 12.Kelly 13.Porter 14.Watson 15.Steward

1.Whitcombe 2.Dolly 3.Heyes 4.Wells 5.Henderson 6.Hatherell 7.Cracknell 8.Jansen
9.Youngs 10.Atkinson 11.Bassett 12.Cokanasiga 13.Scott 14.Potter 15.Shillcock

1.West 2.Clare 3.Hurd 4.Green 5.L Chessum 6.Manz 7.Illione 8.Carnduff

I'd say the back three depth there is far better than this season and Hatherell sould be a very astute signing in a RWC year. If West settles he'd improve the LH depth as well given there's currently a drop off in scrummaging after Cronin and Whitcombe.

Overall I feel optimistic looking at that. Though I hope we see more signings announced alongside OHC. Centre in particular for me.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by sapajo »

ay2oh wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:11 pm
Leicestertinytiger wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:55 pm
ay2oh wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:51 pm Would love to keep Watson but it’s unlikely.
Sounds harsh but would rather OHC. Watson had injury issues before and has hardly put those doubts to rest at the club. Think him making a packet in France would be best for everyone.

Henderson I’m hopeful of staying but you never know until an announcement is made.
keep Watson and sign OHC would be great.
Sadly Watson has become what is known as a hangar queen a term given to an aircraft that spends more time unserviceable than flying
Without hope we are nothing, keep the faith, a Tiger for eternity
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

The news Reffell has another season is probably as close to confirmation that he's on a rolling contract as possible (most likely signed in July 2020)

Reasons being as follows.

Wales Online did say we had him on a rolling contract last summer that was before he got capped.

Yet we didn't announce him as signing anything in the summer, suggesting nothing recently signed.

I'm sure it was also said that last season someone on here talked about chatting to his mum and she said he had one more year left.

Now we have Wigglesworth saying he doesn't need a new contract this year, so for an extra year to be added to the contract without anything being signed you'd definitely suggest that infers he's on a rolling contract which has auto-extended his contract.
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