LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

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sam16111986
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by sam16111986 »

Simmons versatility is probably a key part of him staying with us. He'll definitely be practising at 9 because as already said it's entirely plausible that JVP and Youngs will both be called up and Simmons will need to be able to slot in.

I liked what I saw from Edwards last season, I presume he was injured over the summer though as he wasn't with England and considering the 9s they did take its the only logical reason. He was on loan at Nottingham last season, don't know if it'll be same again but he could get game time during the PRC and other international periods. His style of play is very similar to Wigglesworth so will suit Borthwick's go to game plan from last season.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by TA30 »

Just had a Google to see that Tom Horton was in the same Sydney uni squad as guy porter and Harry potter. Article below has him as replacement:

https://www.sydneyunirugby.com.au/artic ... final-team

Certainly a ringing endorsement from Rob Taylor at the time. Hope he stays fit, could become a real asset.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by LekkerTigers »

https://youtu.be/wX1u0oR809o

Highlights of Tom Horton, for those interested.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by markharbtiger »

longlivethecrumbie wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:57 pm
RagingBull wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:44 pm Outside of injuries we should have start of season
1. Cronin, Whitcombe, Van Wyk, Richardson
2. Clare, Horton, Cowan-Dickie, Vanes
3. Cole, Leatigaga, Hurd, Hoyt
4. Wells, Henderson, Manz
5. Green, Snyman, L.Chessum
6. Liebenberg, Cracknell
7. Reffell, Ilione
8. Martin, Jansen
9. Youngs, Wigglesworth, Edwards
10. Burns, Gopperth, Walsh, Meredith
11. Nadolo, Saumaki, Murimurivalu
12. Kelly, Woodward
13. Scott, Cokanasiga (Injury?), Cusick
14. Potter, Ashton, Browning
15. Watson, Hegarty

I would say those are realistic academy lads who might step up.

Pretty happy with options.
Pretty light at 8 but all those at 6, 7 and 8 (bar Tommy Turnover) can pack down across the back row.
That looks to be the requirement for playing back row at Tigers these days, so not too worried.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by No6_Flanker »

RagingBull wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:44 pm Outside of injuries we should have start of season
1. Cronin, Whitcombe, Van Wyk, Richardson
2. Clare, Horton, Cowan-Dickie, Vanes
3. Cole, Leatigaga, Hurd, Hoyt
4. Wells, Henderson, Manz
5. Green, Snyman, L.Chessum
6. Liebenberg, Cracknell
7. Reffell, Ilione
8. Martin, Jansen
9. Youngs, Wigglesworth, Edwards
10. Burns, Gopperth, Walsh, Meredith
11. Nadolo, Saumaki, Murimurivalu
12. Kelly, Woodward
13. Scott, Cokanasiga (Injury?), Cusick
14. Potter, Ashton, Browning
15. Watson, Hegarty

I would say those are realistic academy lads who might step up.

Pretty happy with options.
Isn’t Cracknell more of an 8 than Martin? I seem to remember him playing there a bit for Irish.
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Previously a slower, shorter, less good looking version of Tom Croft.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by johnthegriff »

Are we as fans getting too bogged down in back row positions. Prior to Neil Back it was quite common for flanker to be left or right, he altered the thinking for open side shape. Of our back row options Reffell fits the bill as a 7 but all our other options I have seen playing for at least part of a game in all back row positions. There are also a couple of good lads I saw playing for the under 18's last season that look the part
I think we are ok in that department at least.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by Rugbygramps »

You’re spot on JTG I would say that of our back row options next season Liebenberg, Cracknell, Ilione and Jansen can all play across the back row, they’re probably more comfortable in a certain position but have that adaptability
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by DeadlyDunc »

LekkerTigers wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:16 am https://youtu.be/wX1u0oR809o

Highlights of Tom Horton, for those interested.
Looks very mobile and like he’ll get around the park like Dolly.

If he can offer a solid set piece too then he could be a ideal pick up
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by mol2 »

johnthegriff wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:52 am Are we as fans getting too bogged down in back row positions. Prior to Neil Back it was quite common for flanker to be left or right, he altered the thinking for open side shape. Of our back row options Reffell fits the bill as a 7 but all our other options I have seen playing for at least part of a game in all back row positions. There are also a couple of good lads I saw playing for the under 18's last season that look the part
I think we are ok in that department at least.
Perhaps but both of those show the benefits of a snaffler at 7 but all of the back row need to have those skills to an extent with the 6&8s needing to be bullocks to an extent or a line out option and the 8 control at the back of the scrum.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by ABClub »

johnthegriff wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:52 am Are we as fans getting too bogged down in back row positions. Prior to Neil Back it was quite common for flanker to be left or right, he altered the thinking for open side shape. Of our back row options Reffell fits the bill as a 7 but all our other options I have seen playing for at least part of a game in all back row positions. There are also a couple of good lads I saw playing for the under 18's last season that look the part
I think we are ok in that department at least.
When fans get up in arms about players being used in multiple positions by international coaches in particular I do often point out that this isn't a new thing in rugby at all!

Bigger blindsides that cover lock and more mobile locks that cover 6 isn't new at all. Matt Cockbain of course won the 1999 RWC playing 6 for instance.

Players covering 6 and 8 is common for as long as rugby has been about. Similar with guys playing 6 and 7 - Richard Hill anyone?

Fullbacks covering wing and wings covering fullback. Pacier 13s covering wing and bigger wingers covering 13 - Leon Lloyd and Seru Rabeni are two of my favourite ever Tigers.

Fly-halves also playing inside centre has also been very common. A certain Daniel Carter starter his career as a ball playing 12 who ran everything. He developed into the best all-round 10 I've ever seen in the best team I've even seen that kicked more than anyone in rugby but did so in a manner that brought them attacking opportunities that they were equally ruthless and mesmerising from.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by Scott1 »

ABClub wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:09 pm
johnthegriff wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:52 am Are we as fans getting too bogged down in back row positions. Prior to Neil Back it was quite common for flanker to be left or right, he altered the thinking for open side shape. Of our back row options Reffell fits the bill as a 7 but all our other options I have seen playing for at least part of a game in all back row positions. There are also a couple of good lads I saw playing for the under 18's last season that look the part
I think we are ok in that department at least.
When fans get up in arms about players being used in multiple positions by international coaches in particular I do often point out that this isn't a new thing in rugby at all!

Bigger blindsides that cover lock and more mobile locks that cover 6 isn't new at all. Matt Cockbain of course won the 1999 RWC playing 6 for instance.

Players covering 6 and 8 is common for as long as rugby has been about. Similar with guys playing 6 and 7 - Richard Hill anyone?

Fullbacks covering wing and wings covering fullback. Pacier 13s covering wing and bigger wingers covering 13 - Leon Lloyd and Seru Rabeni are two of my favourite ever Tigers.

Fly-halves also playing inside centre has also been very common. A certain Daniel Carter starter his career as a ball playing 12 who ran everything. He developed into the best all-round 10 I've ever seen in the best team I've even seen that kicked more than anyone in rugby but did so in a manner that brought them attacking opportunities that they were equally ruthless and mesmerising from.
Good post ,but the argument could be made that the greatest BR that ever played the game (imo) had a bona-fide 6 at 6,7 at 7 and 8 at 8. Kaino,McCaw, Read. McCaw was never as good at 6 and dont mention Kaino at lock!
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by ABClub »

Scott1 wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:11 pm Good post ,but the argument could be made that the greatest BR that ever played the game (imo) had a bona-fide 6 at 6,7 at 7 and 8 at 8. Kaino,McCaw, Read. McCaw was never as good at 6 and dont mention Kaino at lock!
Even there though Kaino played lots of 8, too a very good standard, throughout his career.

Read predominantly played at 6 for the beginning of his career as well with Moses Tuiali'i and Waldrom variously preferred to him.

So even there you see the clear element of rugby's traditional versatility. It's always been more prominent with the better players as well I think. If you're good enough to be a world class 6 you'll probably be pretty handy at 8. Similar for wing and fullback.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by Scott1 »

ABClub wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:35 pm
Scott1 wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:11 pm Good post ,but the argument could be made that the greatest BR that ever played the game (imo) had a bona-fide 6 at 6,7 at 7 and 8 at 8. Kaino,McCaw, Read. McCaw was never as good at 6 and dont mention Kaino at lock!
Even there though Kaino played lots of 8, too a very good standard, throughout his career.

Read predominantly played at 6 for the beginning of his career as well with Moses Tuiali'i and Waldrom variously preferred to him.

So even there you see the clear element of rugby's traditional versatility. It's always been more prominent with the better players as well I think. If you're good enough to be a world class 6 you'll probably be pretty handy at 8. Similar for wing and fullback.
Mike Brown on the wing anyone? 😂 Rob Kearney was a great FB too who would've been lost on the wing,did he ever play there? On the other hand NZ have played 3 FB at once so I don't think there's a definitive answer. There's 10/12 and 10/15 too but you very rarely see a 10/12/15. There are definitely specialised positions in rugby and always will be and while some can move around at domestic level they usually get found out at the very top level unless they are elite.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by ABClub »

Yep, I did specify that it's more prominent with the best players. At no point have I argued all good 15s can play wing and vice versa either. Many can though. Jason Robinson and Josh Lewsey from the best England side I've seen for instance. Issy Dagg and Ben Smith from that magnificent NZ side. Howlett played 15 to a very good standard in domestic rugby and Muliana played 13 too for instance. The best players tend to have transferrable skills.

Pretty sure Kearney's early caps came predominantly on the wing as Smurf and Dempsey were still about.

My overlying point is that many are quick to want specialisation but if players are genuinely very good at multiple positions it's a huge asset. Sometimes I feel genuinely versatile players get put down unnecessarily. Marchant for instance I think is one of those players that can genuinely play 13 and wing to a very high level. He has the defensive and distribution game for 13 but also the pace, footwork and high ball work for wing. That's an enormous asset in a 23. Sometimes it gets done down due to versatility being a dirty word in rugby.

There are areas where I think versatility can be a farce as well I'll add though. In Lions years we frequently see players championed for the squad as 'versatile' when really pundits are suggesting they cover positions where they'll never threaten the test 23, so it's pretty meaningless. Slade was one of those in discussions of the last tour. I saw people suggesting he covered 12 and 13 to a brilliant standard, then 10 and 15 at a push. In reality he's been fleetingly very good but inconsistent at 13, largely rubbish at 12, played about 30 minutes at 15 in a crisis and not been a 10 in years!

Arundell for instance should be able to play 15 and either wing to a world class level. He has the pace, power, passing, kicking, vision, etc etc to do both. As such forcing specialisation would only harm what he offers LI and England in my opinion.
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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2022/23 - Prisoner of Oadby Pre-Season

Post by Scott1 »

ABClub wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:59 pm Yep, I did specify that it's more prominent with the best players. At no point have I argued all good 15s can play wing and vice versa either. Many can though. Jason Robinson and Josh Lewsey from the best England side I've seen for instance. Issy Dagg and Ben Smith from that magnificent NZ side. Howlett played 15 to a very good standard in domestic rugby and Muliana played 13 too for instance. The best players tend to have transferrable skills.

Pretty sure Kearney's early caps came predominantly on the wing as Smurf and Dempsey were still about.

My overlying point is that many are quick to want specialisation but if players are genuinely very good at multiple positions it's a huge asset. Sometimes I feel genuinely versatile players get put down unnecessarily. Marchant for instance I think is one of those players that can genuinely play 13 and wing to a very high level. He has the defensive and distribution game for 13 but also the pace, footwork and high ball work for wing. That's an enormous asset in a 23. Sometimes it gets done down due to versatility being a dirty word in rugby.

There are areas where I think versatility can be a farce as well I'll add though. In Lions years we frequently see players championed for the squad as 'versatile' when really pundits are suggesting they cover positions where they'll never threaten the test 23, so it's pretty meaningless. Slade was one of those in discussions of the last tour. I saw people suggesting he covered 12 and 13 to a brilliant standard, then 10 and 15 at a push. In reality he's been fleetingly very good but inconsistent at 13, largely rubbish at 12, played about 30 minutes at 15 in a crisis and not been a 10 in years!

Arundell for instance should be able to play 15 and either wing to a world class level. He has the pace, power, passing, kicking, vision, etc etc to do both. As such forcing specialisation would only harm what he offers LI and England in my opinion.
Cory Jane played FB too,his early NZ caps were at 15 I believe. Didn't he move over for Dagg? I don't think you can count early career as proving a player can play in more than one position. Kearney was a FB,and a world class one at that. Wasn't Reads games at 6 very early in his career too and he then played over 10 years at 8,could be wrong. So he was a specialist 8,imo of course. I think it's a debate that could go on and on.
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