Wasps in the mire - now in administration

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Tiglon
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Tiglon »

loretta wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 8:44 am
Tiglon wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:56 pm Seems like some want rugby to cut off its nose to spite its face.

The logo and the name still have value. Value that can benefit the rest of professional rugby in England, including Tigers. Unless we can replace the two clubs in the Premiership, there'll be less TV money on offer next time it's up for negotiation, and there seems little chance that anyone in the Championship can step up.

As said above, it is just a logo, so why do we feel the need to punish it? The people responsible are long gone.
It’s about being seen to be fair, applying the laws to all equally and without favour. There’s value to Rugby as a whole when that principle is upheld, and actions that are contrary to it undermine the sport’s reputation and standing in the eyes of the general public. They devalue it.

Wasps and Worcester should honour the laws of the game and both drop through the leagues, just like those clubs that did it before. Bending the rules to allow them a fast track back would be an insult to all the others who’ve gone down in former years, years in which there was plenty of financial pressure and yet the sport miraculously survived. I wonder if lawyers representing London Welsh, London Scottish et al might currently be sharpening their pencils in readiness. Should Irish collapse in the next week, would they be included too? How many times will failures in the modern era be offered a lifeline just because we’re comfortable with their name, when good clubs in earlier times were not?

In the future, it looks likely that we’ll be going down the prem 1 and prem 2 route, with 10 in each. According to an article by Gavin Mairs, that could even be as early as next season if Irish do fold. We don’t need 2 more logos to make up the numbers, what we need is the funding step between the 2 proposed leagues to be less of an obstacle. Then clubs like Cov and Pirates can become household names, just like Exeter and Worcester did when they emerged into the sunlit uplands of the Prem!

The favouritism being proposed for the Wasps brand (and potentially dragging Worcester on its coat tails) stinks. It reeks of the old boy network, of pressure being placed on the blazers of HQ, and it plays into the narrative that our sport favours the privileged. If there’s one thing that would devalue the rest of rugby in England, including Tigers, it’s more of that!
What it reeks of to me is a necessary pragmatism. The Old Boys network would surely have been more inclined to save Richmond than Wasps or Worcester.

That funding step is only made more difficult to achieve without Wasps.

Coventry and Pirates simply aren't going to become household names. Not without investment from wealthy owners and, even then it's not easy - see Ealing. Let's be honest, there are very few household names in club rugby, but Wasps are one of them.

Good debate by the way, and I fully respect your desire for fairness. I just don't think rugby can afford to be so idealistic, and needs to consider what's fair for everyone else in the game who would be helped by the continuation of Wasps at the top level.
loretta
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by loretta »

Tiglon wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:08 am
loretta wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 8:44 am
Tiglon wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:56 pm Seems like some want rugby to cut off its nose to spite its face.

The logo and the name still have value. Value that can benefit the rest of professional rugby in England, including Tigers. Unless we can replace the two clubs in the Premiership, there'll be less TV money on offer next time it's up for negotiation, and there seems little chance that anyone in the Championship can step up.

As said above, it is just a logo, so why do we feel the need to punish it? The people responsible are long gone.
It’s about being seen to be fair, applying the laws to all equally and without favour. There’s value to Rugby as a whole when that principle is upheld, and actions that are contrary to it undermine the sport’s reputation and standing in the eyes of the general public. They devalue it.

Wasps and Worcester should honour the laws of the game and both drop through the leagues, just like those clubs that did it before. Bending the rules to allow them a fast track back would be an insult to all the others who’ve gone down in former years, years in which there was plenty of financial pressure and yet the sport miraculously survived. I wonder if lawyers representing London Welsh, London Scottish et al might currently be sharpening their pencils in readiness. Should Irish collapse in the next week, would they be included too? How many times will failures in the modern era be offered a lifeline just because we’re comfortable with their name, when good clubs in earlier times were not?

In the future, it looks likely that we’ll be going down the prem 1 and prem 2 route, with 10 in each. According to an article by Gavin Mairs, that could even be as early as next season if Irish do fold. We don’t need 2 more logos to make up the numbers, what we need is the funding step between the 2 proposed leagues to be less of an obstacle. Then clubs like Cov and Pirates can become household names, just like Exeter and Worcester did when they emerged into the sunlit uplands of the Prem!

The favouritism being proposed for the Wasps brand (and potentially dragging Worcester on its coat tails) stinks. It reeks of the old boy network, of pressure being placed on the blazers of HQ, and it plays into the narrative that our sport favours the privileged. If there’s one thing that would devalue the rest of rugby in England, including Tigers, it’s more of that!
What it reeks of to me is a necessary pragmatism. The Old Boys network would surely have been more inclined to save Richmond than Wasps or Worcester.

That funding step is only made more difficult to achieve without Wasps.

Coventry and Pirates simply aren't going to become household names. Not without investment from wealthy owners and, even then it's not easy - see Ealing. Let's be honest, there are very few household names in club rugby, but Wasps are one of them.

Good debate by the way, and I fully respect your desire for fairness. I just don't think rugby can afford to be so idealistic, and needs to consider what's fair for everyone else in the game who would be helped by the continuation of Wasps at the top level.
Yes, I always appreciate the ability to have a debate without descending into argument and insult. I suppose we see different risks, and value them accordingly, but only time will tell. Although some differences in perception among the general public may never be quantifiable or attributable.
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sk 88
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by sk 88 »

Tiglon wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:56 pm Seems like some want rugby to cut off its nose to spite its face.

The logo and the name still have value. Value that can benefit the rest of professional rugby in England, including Tigers. Unless we can replace the two clubs in the Premiership, there'll be less TV money on offer next time it's up for negotiation, and there seems little chance that anyone in the Championship can step up.

As said above, it is just a logo, so why do we feel the need to punish it? The people responsible are long gone.
Yes, about £150k according to what Holland paid the administrators.

The people responsible are not long gone at all though. The lawyer who brokered the move to Coventry & was a director is still involved and the COO (also another director) is Christopher Holland the sole person now actually technically a director at new Wasps. These are the same people who ran them into the ground looking for special favours.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by kpj tiger »

My major problem with Wasps getting any reprieve (same as any club who goes bust) is it incentivises clubs to take stupid risks and live beyond their means, go bust? Oh well just go down to the championship, wipe the slate clean and come back a year later....
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by johnthegriff »

For those with a memory that extends back before professionalism of our sport Coventry was a big name, if course not being in London it ranked behind Wasps, Richmond, various exiles club's and Roslyn Park but it was a big name with many international p!ayers as part of its heritage. Paying players caused so many problems for our sport but it was the right way to go, possibly with hindsight we went for it too quickly, Association Football has had.more than a century and a half to get where it is we have tried to make the jump basically overnight, we need to pause take stock and come up with a plan to move forward without losing what we have gained in the last twenty odd years. Attendance at club rugby matches whilst still not sufficient is far greater than it was thirty years ago, tv coverage is way beyond the few minutes of Rugby Special that covered our game in the past and stadia and facilities have come on in leaps and bounds.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by mol2 »

I believe Coventry decided there was to much risk going Pro and decided to stay as they were. A reasoned decision and they remain a viable historic club.

Do/did the recent Wasps side have a bigger following than the sides seeking promotion? Hard to say. The draw to watch a championship game is less than a Premiership one. Given enough capacity would Ealing or Cornish Pirates draw more or less than Wasps in the Championship? A near empty Ricoh, even after tickets had been given away, left the buzz of the tannoy the loudest sound!
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Rugbygramps »

Not a popular view maybe , but I sort of get where the RFU are coming from, wanting to get Wasps and Worcester into the championship within 5 years.
I have seen a number of posters saying that they feel one way forward would be to have a viable premiership and championship of 10 teams each.
IMO to do this each of the possible 20 teams would need to be able to have the potential to play in the premiership.
Wasps and Worcester have the recognisable name to be able to at least in theory to do this.
Hartbury, Ampthill, Caldy and more for geographical reasons Jersey, don’t.

I agree 100% with those posters for who the idea sticks in the claw, but it maybe that to get the 2 league structure it would have to happen
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Old Hob »

johnthegriff wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 1:13 pm For those with a memory that extends back before professionalism of our sport Coventry was a big name, if course not being in London it ranked behind Wasps, Richmond, various exiles club's and Roslyn Park but it was a big name with many international p!ayers as part of its heritage. Paying players caused so many problems for our sport but it was the right way to go, possibly with hindsight we went for it too quickly, Association Football has had more than a century and a half to get where it is we have tried to make the jump basically overnight, we need to pause take stock and come up with a plan to move forward without losing what we have gained in the last twenty odd years. Attendance at club rugby matches whilst still not sufficient is far greater than it was thirty years ago, tv coverage is way beyond the few minutes of Rugby Special that covered our game in the past and stadia and facilities have come on in leaps and bounds.
All true. I remember agreeing with a Bristol supporting friend that if the game were to go professional then the model to copy was county cricket, not soccer. Three men, a dog and the new bowler's mum on a damp Thursday in May at Grace Road seemed to us to be far more like what the pro era in rugby was to be like, and throwing silly money about would end in tears.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by GB72 »

Rugbygramps wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 7:41 pm Not a popular view maybe , but I sort of get where the RFU are coming from, wanting to get Wasps and Worcester into the championship within 5 years.
I have seen a number of posters saying that they feel one way forward would be to have a viable premiership and championship of 10 teams each.
IMO to do this each of the possible 20 teams would need to be able to have the potential to play in the premiership.
Wasps and Worcester have the recognisable name to be able to at least in theory to do this.
Hartbury, Ampthill, Caldy and more for geographical reasons Jersey, don’t.

I agree 100% with those posters for who the idea sticks in the claw, but it maybe that to get the 2 league structure it would have to happen
I sort of have to agree with this. The problem with the Championship at the moment is that it is just nor marketable. Your simply could not give the TV rights away at the moment. If they are to even think about getting funding from a TV deal and increased promition, the unfortunate situation is that you need names that the general public may recognise and Wasps fits that bill. Yes, the ideal is for other clubs to grow but they need something to attract the outside interest and a known name is more likely to do that. On the back of that these things grow and that is essential when promotion comes back as the Prem needs clubs that can pull crowds around 10000 and not clubs with a couple of thousand supporters at best.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by johnthegriff »

The wider public with no interest in Rugby may well not have heard of Wasps but they will have heard of Doncaster, Jersey, Coventry and Worcester a name like Cornish Pirates will strike a chord but Wasps, Saracens tell the non rugby person nothing.
We do need teams and grounds capable of producing larger crowds and in the recent past, Exeter before their move to Sandy Park had small crowds, Saracens played on a public park with a single strand of rope round the pitch, Harlequins had their own ground but small crowds and a single small stand over the changing rooms. Our game has grown and moved on there have been hiccups on the way we have lost teams like Orrell, West Hartlepool and others we must encourage gradual growth, be flexible about ground sharing with other sports, there are ways forward if we move carefully.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club »

A professional Wasps club really shouldn't be allowed until they have paid off their Rugby debts, anyone involved in the previous incarnation at owner or board level should be banned from the sport.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Rugbygramps »

As usual JTG makes some good points.
I do agree that ground share options do need to be investigated but necessarily with football clubs. Thinking out loud I would imagine that Brentford football club do not want London Irish playing on their pitch. They sit 9th in the premier league, not far off European qualification, and the type of playing surface they require is very different from that which a premiership rugby team looks for. If Wasps still existed, Coventry are one game away from playing in the premiership, would the same issues have occurred.
Saracens ground is/was an athletics stadium, and they have successfully adapted it. I’m not a follower of Athletics, but I imagine there must be a number of similar stadium in the country, with a large area of grass in the middle that isn’t used much.
I hope they stay away from artificial pitches, hybrid like MWWR are fine, as they give the home side an advantage, and also whereas there is no definitive proof that they cause a larger number of joint/muscle injuries, the caused by friction burns and grazes is much greater. If this isn’t the case why do most of the Saracens backs run around in leggings.
JTG also says we should move carefully, I just wonder how many years we have left to make those moves
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Pmvl »

I thought the G-Tech stadium was owned by Brentford council as it’s also known as the Brentford Community Stadium
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Rugbygramps »

Pmvl wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 3:33 pm I thought the G-Tech stadium was owned by Brentford council as it’s also known as the Brentford Community Stadium
You are quite right, my apologies, both are listed as tenants.
It is still a fact that both sports require different things from their pitches, and I would think that Brentford would be the primary tenant
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by LE18 »

Rugbygramps wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 2:08 pm As usual JTG makes some good points.
I do agree that ground share options do need to be investigated but necessarily with football clubs. Thinking out loud I would imagine that Brentford football club do not want London Irish playing on their pitch. They sit 9th in the premier league, not far off European qualification, and the type of playing surface they require is very different from that which a premiership rugby team looks for. If Wasps still existed, Coventry are one game away from playing in the premiership, would the same issues have occurred.
Saracens ground is/was an athletics stadium, and they have successfully adapted it. I’m not a follower of Athletics, but I imagine there must be a number of similar stadium in the country, with a large area of grass in the middle that isn’t used much.
I hope they stay away from artificial pitches, hybrid like MWWR are fine, as they give the home side an advantage, and also whereas there is no definitive proof that they cause a larger number of joint/muscle injuries, the caused by friction burns and grazes is much greater. If this isn’t the case why do most of the Saracens backs run around in leggings.
JTG also says we should move carefully, I just wonder how many years we have left to make those moves
Agree regarding ground share, athletic stadium, cycle tracks and possibly cricket grounds. I wonder though if they are large enough to include a rugby full size pitch in the centre, does a 440 yd circuit allow that, do cricket grounds, other than Swansea, have enough spare room? Think it would have to be soccer pitches, smaller clubs, who could accommodate the pitch, although some might be tight.!
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