Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Forum to discuss everything that is Tigers related

Moderators: Tigerbeat, Rizzo, Tigers Press Office, Tigers Webmaster

Post Reply
Scott1
Super User
Super User
Posts: 16783
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:03 pm

Re: Wasps still in the mire

Post by Scott1 »

Its a bit like this. There's 2 pubs in my village and 6 in the town 10 minutes up the road. All of these will have 6N rugby on and be full,some rammed,some not as rammed as others but you get my drift. Same during RWC and Lions tours (depending on licensing etc and what country it is in).
Then the number drops significantly for summer tours and AI,the groups of the same folk you always see together numbers have dwindled. Be surprised if 2 pubs at the most are showing it. And then when it comes to European or GP rugby there's a chance it won't be on anywhere at all and you have to go into the town to one of the multi room pubs and ask them to put it on. I'm just making the point that there's a massive drop off form casual rugby fans to hardcore fans.
Last edited by Scott1 on Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
GB72
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:44 pm

Re: Wasps still in the mire

Post by GB72 »

longlivethecrumbie wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:01 pm If I remember rightly, at the last renegotiation window one of the bidders was Amazon. While Amazon's offering is not everyone's cup of tea, my money would be on there being far more people who have Prime than have BT Sport or Sky. For me, they are the most viable proposition to screen sport without massively decreasing the potential viewer numbers. Also, for those who currently don't want to pay the fee for BT Sport due to cost - paying £8-15 a month for rugby (both club and international) would be far more palatable than the current costs of BT/Sky (if you're not a BT broadband customer)
From a selfish point of view, there is a lot I like here. I have Prime for the delivery options and the sport is a nice bonus. Plus, I can stream it in my garage bar and watch the match in peace with mates and a few pints.

Whilst rugby remains split, I do not subscribe to anything just sport related, I use the radio. I am not going to pay numerous companies to watch the varying rugby matches and this is also part of the problem. By splitting the club game from the international matches under different subscription providers, you are immediately failing to attract the casual fan. The casual fan may subsribe to Sky to watch England but because BT have club matches, that fan will never put a match on just to see what it is like and be converted. If all of the rugby was on one channel, you may pick up some club fans by accident.

In an ideal world, with all rights in one place, you woudl have a channel showing a club game in between 2 six nations matches on a Saturday with a build up and explanation introducing the international fan to the club game. That has some chance of converting a casual to a hardcore fan.
Scott1
Super User
Super User
Posts: 16783
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:03 pm

Re: Wasps still in the mire

Post by Scott1 »

GB72 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:16 pm
longlivethecrumbie wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:01 pm If I remember rightly, at the last renegotiation window one of the bidders was Amazon. While Amazon's offering is not everyone's cup of tea, my money would be on there being far more people who have Prime than have BT Sport or Sky. For me, they are the most viable proposition to screen sport without massively decreasing the potential viewer numbers. Also, for those who currently don't want to pay the fee for BT Sport due to cost - paying £8-15 a month for rugby (both club and international) would be far more palatable than the current costs of BT/Sky (if you're not a BT broadband customer)
From a selfish point of view, there is a lot I like here. I have Prime for the delivery options and the sport is a nice bonus. Plus, I can stream it in my garage bar and watch the match in peace with mates and a few pints.

Whilst rugby remains split, I do not subscribe to anything just sport related, I use the radio. I am not going to pay numerous companies to watch the varying rugby matches and this is also part of the problem. By splitting the club game from the international matches under different subscription providers, you are immediately failing to attract the casual fan. The casual fan may subsribe to Sky to watch England but because BT have club matches, that fan will never put a match on just to see what it is like and be converted. If all of the rugby was on one channel, you may pick up some club fans by accident.

In an ideal world, with all rights in one place, you woudl have a channel showing a club game in between 2 six nations matches on a Saturday with a build up and explanation introducing the international fan to the club game. That has some chance of converting a casual to a hardcore fan.
Think you would have to do some free to air games something like that. Like I said a huge number would walk away if the 6N/RWC went behind a paywall.
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
GB72
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:44 pm

Re: Wasps still in the mire

Post by GB72 »

Scott1 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:19 pm
GB72 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:16 pm
longlivethecrumbie wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:01 pm If I remember rightly, at the last renegotiation window one of the bidders was Amazon. While Amazon's offering is not everyone's cup of tea, my money would be on there being far more people who have Prime than have BT Sport or Sky. For me, they are the most viable proposition to screen sport without massively decreasing the potential viewer numbers. Also, for those who currently don't want to pay the fee for BT Sport due to cost - paying £8-15 a month for rugby (both club and international) would be far more palatable than the current costs of BT/Sky (if you're not a BT broadband customer)
From a selfish point of view, there is a lot I like here. I have Prime for the delivery options and the sport is a nice bonus. Plus, I can stream it in my garage bar and watch the match in peace with mates and a few pints.

Whilst rugby remains split, I do not subscribe to anything just sport related, I use the radio. I am not going to pay numerous companies to watch the varying rugby matches and this is also part of the problem. By splitting the club game from the international matches under different subscription providers, you are immediately failing to attract the casual fan. The casual fan may subsribe to Sky to watch England but because BT have club matches, that fan will never put a match on just to see what it is like and be converted. If all of the rugby was on one channel, you may pick up some club fans by accident.

In an ideal world, with all rights in one place, you woudl have a channel showing a club game in between 2 six nations matches on a Saturday with a build up and explanation introducing the international fan to the club game. That has some chance of converting a casual to a hardcore fan.
Think you would have to do some free to air games something like that. Like I said a huge number would walk away if the 6N/RWC went behind a paywall.
A fair point and something that perhaps Channell 4 woudl do in conjunction with BT like they have done before. Cannot see the BBC agreeing to that but it would seem the ideal way to try and convert some more casual fans.

What continues to grind my gears is the way that, certainly as far as England and the RFU is concerned, club rugby may as well not exist and that is what has to change, in fact the RFU does not even appear to want rugby fans any more, they just want people in Twickenham who are more interested in being seen at the event than watching the match and who can be monetised for every penny they have.
TigerFeetSteve
Super User
Super User
Posts: 7413
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:23 am

Re: Wasps still in the mire

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

Ok veering off topic somewhat, but here's my view on paywalls for England.

Bad idea, without plans in place.

So firstly, has having it on free to air grown the game, no not really, but I do think putting it behind a paywall will shrink the game, 100% yes.

So I'm a huge cricket fan and I remember the 05 Ashes as a kid, after that I didn't watch live test cricket for years as my parents didn't want sky.

I now look round my cricket club and their is a huge void of playing members, now juniors coming through are fewer and further between, lots of clubs merging or folding as they struggle to attract members. Yeah there are kids into sports who come but not kids who watched the Ashes like in 05 who's parents don't know cricket who came to play.

So is a paywall the answer, maybe. For me the key is getting some high quality rugby on free to air tv. With the advent of digital TV there is not a shortage of channels. It doesn't need to be England, in fact consistent regular rugby is probably better, so the Prem makes sense.

Sell the 6N and put the prem on free to air. Make the money on the few and far between games and put the regular games on TV and then it gives more chance for casual fans to see it.

Making all the non TV games free on PRTV would be progress too, would there be a decline in attendance, maybe yes, BUT if it attracts more fans it would likely only be temporary (plus it stops draining the clubs like ours with good away fans having their pockets drained as prices may go down)

The Championship needs to be watchable too, needs to attract fans, though that could be streamed rather than TV (eg a free PRTV)
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
Crofty
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1216
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:07 pm
Location: The bagging area (unexpectedly)

Re: Wasps still in the mire

Post by Crofty »

GB72 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:35 pm
Crofty wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:22 pm I just cannot shake the feeling that taking the 6 Nations and the RWC and stocking them behind a common paywall with the Premiership rather than boosting the Prem will just kill off the international game in England... :smt009
I do understand that but I am not so sure. Even if you sold off the 6 Nations rights, that would only be England home matches so half of the games would still be on free to air.

What I would love is for it all to be on free to air but nobody will pay for or commit to showing 2 or 3 live matches every week. Hell we cannot even get a highlights show on before midnight. All I can see is that the 6 Nations is the crown jewel of england rugby and it should be used as a bargaining chip for the good of the game as a whole, be it through access, promotion or cold hard cash. At present you cannot even get the RFU to promote the club game (look at social media feeds during the off weeks in the 6 nations when the official accounts ask people what they are doing with no rugby on) and so I just feel that some change is necesary. If it has to stay on free to air TV then I would give the rights to channel 4 for at least making some effort to show club matches.
You do realise this is because the Premiership isn't really the RFU's product, it's a privately owned league shared between 13 clubs and CVC, the RFU has no financial stake so of course they don't spend their money promoting it. That's the root cause of the schism and it's more the clubs fault than the RFU sad to say...
No, not that one!

Remember, whatever you do to the smallest of the backs you do to his prop, and you can't avoid the rucks and mauls forever...

I know you don't like it when I boo him but how else will he know he's wrong?

non possumus capere
tigerburnie
Super User
Super User
Posts: 8317
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:46 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Wasps still in the mire

Post by tigerburnie »

We don't the RFU suits grubby mits on our club thankyou
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
Hot_Charlie
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4041
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:30 pm
Location: Lincoln

Re: Wasps still in the mire

Post by Hot_Charlie »

TigerFeetSteve wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:48 pm
Making all the non TV games free on PRTV would be progress too, would there be a decline in attendance, maybe yes, BUT if it attracts more fans it would likely only be temporary (plus it stops draining the clubs like ours with good away fans having their pockets drained as prices may go down)
I'm not sure how BT Sport would feel about all the matches they are not showing being shown live for free. I have an inkling they'd be somewhat worried that their subscription numbers might decline somewhat. Then obviously their deal which, in real terms, has brought in less money this time round after the last renewal, would have to be re-negotiated. Which means even less money to the clubs again.

As for the Championship, they could have been streaming live for years, but there seems to be a reluctance to accept the reality that no company is going to pay for the rights to screen matches.
Grannyman
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:59 am
Location: Biggleswade

Re: Wasps still in the mire

Post by Grannyman »

Is this not the Wasps thread?
GB72
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:44 pm

Re: Wasps still in the mire

Post by GB72 »

Grannyman wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:09 am Is this not the Wasps thread?
I think that is has just spread to the wider topic. The problems at Wasps are, in the main, of their own causing but they are also a symptom of a much wider problem in professional rugby in that the income and fan numbers are not rising enough to keep up with increased player wage demands and the squad sizes required in the modern game. The TV companies have no interest in the game below the top flight and even then they are not willing to pay huge amounts for club rights.

As such, whilst this started focused on the issues at Wasps, it would not seem unreasonable to discuss how to try and prevent these events happening elsewhere. Don't forget that comments after the event suggested that we were not that far away from going under during covid. With Exeter being the only recent premiership club to not make a loss every year, some new ideas clearly are needed.
GB72
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:44 pm

Re: Wasps still in the mire

Post by GB72 »

Crofty wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:06 pm
GB72 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:35 pm
Crofty wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:22 pm I just cannot shake the feeling that taking the 6 Nations and the RWC and stocking them behind a common paywall with the Premiership rather than boosting the Prem will just kill off the international game in England... :smt009
I do understand that but I am not so sure. Even if you sold off the 6 Nations rights, that would only be England home matches so half of the games would still be on free to air.

What I would love is for it all to be on free to air but nobody will pay for or commit to showing 2 or 3 live matches every week. Hell we cannot even get a highlights show on before midnight. All I can see is that the 6 Nations is the crown jewel of england rugby and it should be used as a bargaining chip for the good of the game as a whole, be it through access, promotion or cold hard cash. At present you cannot even get the RFU to promote the club game (look at social media feeds during the off weeks in the 6 nations when the official accounts ask people what they are doing with no rugby on) and so I just feel that some change is necesary. If it has to stay on free to air TV then I would give the rights to channel 4 for at least making some effort to show club matches.
You do realise this is because the Premiership isn't really the RFU's product, it's a privately owned league shared between 13 clubs and CVC, the RFU has no financial stake so of course they don't spend their money promoting it. That's the root cause of the schism and it's more the clubs fault than the RFU sad to say...
I am fully aware but I also feel that the RFU has a role in promoting the game in general at all levels. If they feel they cannot promote Premiership rugby (and this is just on their social media, not talking about any form of marketing push) then at least direct fans towards championship rugby during the 6 nations rest weeks. This is the one time of year when more eyes than normal are on the sport and so it is a missed opportunity to ignore the wider game and pretend that all rugby stops when the 6 nations is not on.
Hot_Charlie
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4041
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:30 pm
Location: Lincoln

Re: Wasps still in the mire

Post by Hot_Charlie »

Grannyman wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:09 am Is this not the Wasps thread?
It is, but the whole Wasps scenario is down to either blinkered rose-tinted predictions about the commercial growth and potential of the game or a complete gamble which appears to be misfiring massively.

And ultimately the problem that people don't seem to get is that the product isn't commercially successful unless your a Tier 1 international side OR a very big domestic club, who can probably be counted on one hand. BT Sport effectively paid less for the Prem rights than their previous contract (they renewed at the same price IIRC). They can't sell the rights to the RFU Championship (so how can they expect people to pay to go and watch it either).

Wasps are just a microcosm of the wider reality.
Wellscity
Tiger Cub
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:10 am

Re: Wasps still in the mire

Post by Wellscity »

35 million + in the red
How can a company /Plc trade/function without being bankrupted and forced to cease trading
I know if I was creditor I would be more than a bit PIFFED.

Its not good for the game, players nor the fans. No matter how many ways we pontificate about how the Prem or Rugby should be funded and by whom, some one in charge of Wasps financials has got them into this mess. Either by Ground acquisition or trading .
Sell back to Cov City fc, Pay some debt and ground rent/ground share

Oh back when they were slapping their jaws about taking fans from Welford Road and Promotion adds on our doorstep
make me want to LOL :smt005 :smt005
GB72
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:44 pm

Re: Wasps still in the mire

Post by GB72 »

Ont thing that I thought that I would never even consider is that rugby may even have to consider moving the season. I am very much against this for a number of reasons but, from a commercial point of view, the sport is currently competing for fans and TV money against Premier League Football and, as a result, are being steamrollered with barely any coverage in printed, TV or online media. Perhaps playing when there is no football could help increase interest. Lets face it, rugby has no chance against the relentless onslaught of the football premier league marketing and PR teams.
Grannyman
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:59 am
Location: Biggleswade

Re: Wasps still in the mire

Post by Grannyman »

GB72 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:35 am Ont thing that I thought that I would never even consider is that rugby may even have to consider moving the season. I am very much against this for a number of reasons but, from a commercial point of view, the sport is currently competing for fans and TV money against Premier League Football and, as a result, are being steamrollered with barely any coverage in printed, TV or online media. Perhaps playing when there is no football could help increase interest. Lets face it, rugby has no chance against the relentless onslaught of the football premier league marketing and PR teams.
If we all end up on plastic pitches, this would make sense.
Post Reply