Wasps in the mire - now in administration

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johnthegriff
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by johnthegriff »

Richmond, London Welsh, Orwell, West Hartlepool and several others were all historic clubs that struggled to meet the demands of the professional era. Wasps and Worcester have no special rights but we do need more than just 12 or 14 fully professional clubs so both teams should be given every chance to find a business plan and shareholders to enable them to carry on. We must have promotion and relegation between two divisions at least, personally I would like to see that include Welsh teams. Modify but retain ground minimum standard requirements for promotion to the top level and get TV monies increased.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Rugbygramps »

JTG I think your hope of more than 12 or 14 professional teams is unrealistic. 2 have already gone to the wall, 2 more are reportedly struggling, Irish and Quins, and the Eelsh region’s desperate heavy WRU backing are playing in front of quarter full stadium and their feeder clubs are already semi pro.
A premiership of 10 clubs supported by a semi professional championship of a 10 further clubs with relegation every season could be achievable
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by tigerburnie »

I find it hard to understand how a group led by ex players can contemplate taking over a club and not planning to pay what is owed to the fans who bought the bonds, morally that puts them in the same place the previous owners sat.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
johnthegriff
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by johnthegriff »

Rugbygramps two have gone to the wall either through gross mismanagement or dishonesty with the pandemic lockdown playing a part. For our league to work we have to have promotion and relegation therefore a semi-professional second tier jus cannot be. A ten team Premiership will not generate sufficient games or revenue to actually pay the players unless fans are willing to pay approximately double the current amount. Do you fancy paying £100.00 to sit or stand in the open at Bath.
The game went professional a quarter if a century ago, with years exception of Worcester teams with their own grounds survived and improved their facilities. Those that are simply tenants have struggled or been dependent on a wealthy.benefactor.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

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johnthegriff wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:08 pm Rugbygramps two have gone to the wall either through gross mismanagement or dishonesty with the pandemic lockdown playing a part. For our league to work we have to have promotion and relegation therefore a semi-professional second tier jus cannot be. A ten team Premiership will not generate sufficient games or revenue to actually pay the players unless fans are willing to pay approximately double the current amount. Do you fancy paying £100.00 to sit or stand in the open at Bath.
The game went professional a quarter if a century ago, with years exception of Worcester teams with their own grounds survived and improved their facilities. Those that are simply tenants have struggled or been dependent on a wealthy.benefactor.
I shall ask you one question, because supporters go round in circles with this. Where is the money coming from, certainly not the RFU, and tv certainly isn’t going to pay more for a minority sport. You can have the best suggestion in the world but unless you have concrete financing it just isn’t going to happen.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by johnthegriff »

Money ultimately comes from fans paying to see matches. Tigers are well supported and have a turnover in excess of 20 million out of which they pay the team and coaches, finance an Academy, with scouting and coaching and support an extensive community program currently they are also funding a womens team. Since the game went professional we have purchased our ground, and a major fitness facility in Oadby, the actual training ground is on lease but maintained by us. We have built two new stands and made big improvements to the rest of the ground. Other clubs like Gloucester, Quins, Saints, Exeter have done similar others like Bath, Saracens and Bristol have found other routes but in all cases our game grows by getting bums on seats. Welsh.rugby in my opinion made a mistake by choosing to support regions where the fans st that time had no vested interest but games against other Welsh sides or against English opposition generate support whilst a visiting Irish team devoid of their big stars does not attract. Having your own ground and facilities enables that club to earn for more than just a home match day. Rugby in France is like here second to soccer as a sport but they have two competitive divisions with proper promotion and relegation which creates interest revenue from TV and consequently exposure for sponsors. We just need some old farts to get off their backsides and put some effort in.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Rugbygramps »

johnthegriff wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:53 pm Money ultimately comes from fans paying to see matches. Tigers are well supported and have a turnover in excess of 20 million out of which they pay the team and coaches, finance an Academy, with scouting and coaching and support an extensive community program currently they are also funding a womens team. Since the game went professional we have purchased our ground, and a major fitness facility in Oadby, the actual training ground is on lease but maintained by us. We have built two new stands and made big improvements to the rest of the ground. Other clubs like Gloucester, Quins, Saints, Exeter have done similar others like Bath, Saracens and Bristol have found other routes but in all cases our game grows by getting bums on seats. Welsh.rugby in my opinion made a mistake by choosing to support regions where the fans st that time had no vested interest but games against other Welsh sides or against English opposition generate support whilst a visiting Irish team devoid of their big stars does not attract. Having your own ground and facilities enables that club to earn for more than just a home match day. Rugby in France is like here second to soccer as a sport but they have two competitive divisions with proper promotion and relegation which creates interest revenue from TV and consequently exposure for sponsors. We just need some old farts to get off their backsides and put some effort in.
Still haven’t answered my question, and your debate centres around what has already happened not what is going to happen to move things forward.
In a current economic climate where people can’t afford to put food on their tables or put the heating, a few old farts isn’t going to solve the problem.
Not sure France is the best example where to the best of my knowledge other team sports such as Cricket or Basketball don’t have a footing. If it was that simple rugby in Spain would be thriving.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by wormus »

Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:45 pm JTG I think your hope of more than 12 or 14 professional teams is unrealistic. 2 have already gone to the wall, 2 more are reportedly struggling, Irish and Quins, and the Eelsh region’s desperate heavy WRU backing are playing in front of quarter full stadium and their feeder clubs are already semi pro.
A premiership of 10 clubs supported by a semi professional championship of a 10 further clubs with relegation every season could be achievable
I'm not sure about the "Eelsh " Regions but in Wales they are now allowing clubs to play down to 12 - a- side if both teams agreed in order to fulfil the fixtures. This looks like a death knock for several of the famous valley clubs if they just cannot attract players into the game. Welsh Schools I'm told prefer football to the Oval shaped ball. In my playing days we lent players to the opposition if they arrived short, but those days may well be long gone!
Here is the BBC report ~ https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64094933
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Rugbygramps »

wormus wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 8:40 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:45 pm JTG I think your hope of more than 12 or 14 professional teams is unrealistic. 2 have already gone to the wall, 2 more are reportedly struggling, Irish and Quins, and the Eelsh region’s desperate heavy WRU backing are playing in front of quarter full stadium and their feeder clubs are already semi pro.
A premiership of 10 clubs supported by a semi professional championship of a 10 further clubs with relegation every season could be achievable
I'm not sure about the "Eelsh " Regions but in Wales they are now allowing clubs to play down to 12 - a- side if both teams agreed in order to fulfil the fixtures. This looks like a death knock for several of the famous valley clubs if they just cannot attract players into the game. Welsh Schools I'm told prefer football to the Oval shaped ball. In my playing days we lent players to the opposition if they arrived short, but those days may well be long gone!
Here is the BBC report ~ https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64094933
Wormus my apologies fat fingers. Yes the 12 aside thing has been present in the lower reaches of the England leagues since post Covid as there were just too many games being lost. I suspect in the old days is prior to leagues
johnthegriff
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by johnthegriff »

The money ultimately comes from fans and investors. The suggested ten team ring fenced league suggested by rugbygramps I don't think would work because, well ask yourself would you pay three to five hundred pounds for a season ticket that gives you just nine games.
I believe the growth and development we have seen at Tigers can be mirrored by other clubs if our game is promoted properly with regular matches against viable opposition. In Wales Ospreys v Scarlets, Dragons v Cardiff or any combination of the four add in Bath or Tigers etc and you have great attendance especially if you include a sensible kick off time that permits fans to get home after the match.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Rugbygramps »

johnthegriff wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:43 am The money ultimately comes from fans and investors. The suggested ten team ring fenced league suggested by rugbygramps I don't think would work because, well ask yourself would you pay three to five hundred pounds for a season ticket that gives you just nine games.
I believe the growth and development we have seen at Tigers can be mirrored by other clubs if our game is promoted properly with regular matches against viable opposition. In Wales Ospreys v Scarlets, Dragons v Cardiff or any combination of the four add in Bath or Tigers etc and you have great attendance especially if you include a sensible kick off time that permits fans to get home after the match.
Pretty sure I didn’t say ring fencing in fact I said promotion and relegation. There is no reason a financial incentive cannot be given to the promoted team going from semi pro to full professional. What would have to be stopped is the parachute payment.
Yes the clubs who you mention would be fine but what about the ones who struggle to attract more than 6000.
Tigers did really well to attract 22000 at the weekend. The combined attendance at Newcastle, Irish and Exeter will have struggled to match that.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Cagey Tiger »

Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:59 am
johnthegriff wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:43 am The money ultimately comes from fans and investors. The suggested ten team ring fenced league suggested by rugbygramps I don't think would work because, well ask yourself would you pay three to five hundred pounds for a season ticket that gives you just nine games.
I believe the growth and development we have seen at Tigers can be mirrored by other clubs if our game is promoted properly with regular matches against viable opposition. In Wales Ospreys v Scarlets, Dragons v Cardiff or any combination of the four add in Bath or Tigers etc and you have great attendance especially if you include a sensible kick off time that permits fans to get home after the match.
Pretty sure I didn’t say ring fencing in fact I said promotion and relegation. There is no reason a financial incentive cannot be given to the promoted team going from semi pro to full professional. What would have to be stopped is the parachute payment.
Yes the clubs who you mention would be fine but what about the ones who struggle to attract more than 6000.
Tigers did really well to attract 22000 at the weekend. The combined attendance at Newcastle, Irish and Exeter will have struggled to match that.
I know that I'm nitpicking to a certain degree, but the combined official attendance at those 3 games was almost 30,000.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Rugbygramps »

Cagey Tiger wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:07 am
Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:59 am
johnthegriff wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:43 am The money ultimately comes from fans and investors. The suggested ten team ring fenced league suggested by rugbygramps I don't think would work because, well ask yourself would you pay three to five hundred pounds for a season ticket that gives you just nine games.
I believe the growth and development we have seen at Tigers can be mirrored by other clubs if our game is promoted properly with regular matches against viable opposition. In Wales Ospreys v Scarlets, Dragons v Cardiff or any combination of the four add in Bath or Tigers etc and you have great attendance especially if you include a sensible kick off time that permits fans to get home after the match.
Pretty sure I didn’t say ring fencing in fact I said promotion and relegation. There is no reason a financial incentive cannot be given to the promoted team going from semi pro to full professional. What would have to be stopped is the parachute payment.
Yes the clubs who you mention would be fine but what about the ones who struggle to attract more than 6000.
Tigers did really well to attract 22000 at the weekend. The combined attendance at Newcastle, Irish and Exeter will have struggled to match that.
I know that I'm nitpicking to a certain degree, but the combined official attendance at those 3 games was almost 30,000.
Ok my apologies there must have been more at Irish than I thought as there was just under 6000 at Falcons and Exeter holds around 12000.
Point still stands to a degree that 3 grounds could only muster 8000 more than 1.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Cagey Tiger »

Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:10 am
Cagey Tiger wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:07 am
Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:59 am

Pretty sure I didn’t say ring fencing in fact I said promotion and relegation. There is no reason a financial incentive cannot be given to the promoted team going from semi pro to full professional. What would have to be stopped is the parachute payment.
Yes the clubs who you mention would be fine but what about the ones who struggle to attract more than 6000.
Tigers did really well to attract 22000 at the weekend. The combined attendance at Newcastle, Irish and Exeter will have struggled to match that.
I know that I'm nitpicking to a certain degree, but the combined official attendance at those 3 games was almost 30,000.
Ok my apologies there must have been more at Irish than I thought as there was just under 6000 at Falcons and Exeter holds around 12000.
Point still stands to a degree that 3 grounds could only muster 8000 more than 1.
You're behind the times RG, Sandy Park capacity is now 15,600. And as I said, i was nitpicking a bit :smt023
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Rugbygramps »

Cagey Tiger wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:19 am
Rugbygramps wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:10 am
Cagey Tiger wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:07 am
I know that I'm nitpicking to a certain degree, but the combined official attendance at those 3 games was almost 30,000.
Ok my apologies there must have been more at Irish than I thought as there was just under 6000 at Falcons and Exeter holds around 12000.
Point still stands to a degree that 3 grounds could only muster 8000 more than 1.
You're behind the times RG, Sandy Park capacity is now 15,600. And as I said, i was nitpicking a bit :smt023
Oh lord of course they’ve had that new stand built.
You were right to mention it. The debate was about bums on seats being the way to increase revenue, whereas in reality it isn’t a level playing field.
A weekend where Tigers, Bristol, Gloucester, Saints and Exeter were the home teams over a weekend where, Irish, Falcons, Sale, Bath and Sarries were the home teams, there would be a huge difference in the aggregate attendance
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