Wasps in the mire - now in administration

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loretta
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by loretta »

thebearisstilldeano wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:59 am More on Rugby Pass
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/its-not- ... nt-happen/
Agree with every word of that.
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jgriffin
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by jgriffin »

teds wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:25 am
jgriffin wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:05 pm
Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 5:33 pm & at present the UK Taxpayer is out of pocket.
Nonsense. Our taxes return to the Treasury fund. 'taxpayer' is a myth. Any monies used in any of the process is either private bank created or government created/recycled. Doesn't stop this being a stitch up though.
Surely, any loan from a private bank would need to be underwritten by the government. Any debt incurred by the government is in effect a liability against the taxpayer. Put simply, because of Wasps, the tax payer would have to pay an additional sum to maintain the same level of services.

That’s not to mention the bond holders who appear to have been defrauded.
National taxes are not ringfenced to fund anything but are used to give value to the currency by recycling (which is politically determined), and are manipulated to slow or speed up circulation of money. The 'taxpayer myth' is tackled in many contemporary economics publications as an example of a political lie, along with 'the nation cannot afford' despite being a fiat currency. Most debts incurred by government are incurred against itself.
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/202 ... ly-untrue/
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Scott1
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Scott1 »

jgriffin wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:25 pm
teds wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:25 am
jgriffin wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:05 pm
Nonsense. Our taxes return to the Treasury fund. 'taxpayer' is a myth. Any monies used in any of the process is either private bank created or government created/recycled. Doesn't stop this being a stitch up though.
Surely, any loan from a private bank would need to be underwritten by the government. Any debt incurred by the government is in effect a liability against the taxpayer. Put simply, because of Wasps, the tax payer would have to pay an additional sum to maintain the same level of services.

That’s not to mention the bond holders who appear to have been defrauded.
National taxes are not ringfenced to fund anything but are used to give value to the currency by recycling (which is politically determined), and are manipulated to slow or speed up circulation of money. The 'taxpayer myth' is tackled in many contemporary economics publications as an example of a political lie, along with 'the nation cannot afford' despite being a fiat currency. Most debts incurred by government are incurred against itself.
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/202 ... ly-untrue/
I thought this was commonly known. Or are there still those naively believing that our government owns the central banks and that the American Government own The Federal Reserve etc!
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eastyorkstiger
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by eastyorkstiger »

the thing that gets me is that the lost income that teams have suffered from the games lost against the 2 defunked teams. In my eyes this is a rugby debt and should be repaid in the form of the p shares. It does seam there is a biased towards wasps over worcs even tho one team have there own ground etc.

Just seams very arrogant to me that they can just run up a big debt go bust and then start up almost straight away. maybe thats just the modern way of doing things but to me it seams wrong
LE18
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by LE18 »

Seems wrong to me too. Worcs. were much more acceptable as a club to me than Wasps.
Old Hob
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Old Hob »

Seems very wrong to me too, especially as the Chief Exec admits the funding is not actually in place neither is it certain where they will play.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64050985
Last edited by Old Hob on Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grimlish
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Grimlish »

Regardless of the comparison with Wasps it was pretty clear that the Worcester proposal was
weak and the finances unsubstantiated. I agree, I’d rather have the Warriors of old than the Wasps of the last 8+ years, but both ships had sailed and only one has found a way back, so far.

And if I were Cov RFC I would be upset too. The RFU’s disregard for the legitimate ambitions of stable Championship clubs is shameful.
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Scott1 »

"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
teds
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by teds »

jgriffin wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:25 pm
teds wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:25 am
jgriffin wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:05 pm
Nonsense. Our taxes return to the Treasury fund. 'taxpayer' is a myth. Any monies used in any of the process is either private bank created or government created/recycled. Doesn't stop this being a stitch up though.
Surely, any loan from a private bank would need to be underwritten by the government. Any debt incurred by the government is in effect a liability against the taxpayer. Put simply, because of Wasps, the tax payer would have to pay an additional sum to maintain the same level of services.

That’s not to mention the bond holders who appear to have been defrauded.
National taxes are not ringfenced to fund anything but are used to give value to the currency by recycling (which is politically determined), and are manipulated to slow or speed up circulation of money. The 'taxpayer myth' is tackled in many contemporary economics publications as an example of a political lie, along with 'the nation cannot afford' despite being a fiat currency. Most debts incurred by government are incurred against itself.
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/202 ... ly-untrue/
@jgriffin - if I recall correctly the author of the piece you link is actually an accountant not an economist and his main idea is to explain to people that governments do not have to balance revenue and expenditure in the same way as households. This much I agree with, but I see no relevance to the consequence of wasps not repaying their loans.

Anyway, I shall stop there and wish you a happy xmas.
teds
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by teds »

Scott1 wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:33 pm
jgriffin wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:25 pm
teds wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:25 am

Surely, any loan from a private bank would need to be underwritten by the government. Any debt incurred by the government is in effect a liability against the taxpayer. Put simply, because of Wasps, the tax payer would have to pay an additional sum to maintain the same level of services.

That’s not to mention the bond holders who appear to have been defrauded.
National taxes are not ringfenced to fund anything but are used to give value to the currency by recycling (which is politically determined), and are manipulated to slow or speed up circulation of money. The 'taxpayer myth' is tackled in many contemporary economics publications as an example of a political lie, along with 'the nation cannot afford' despite being a fiat currency. Most debts incurred by government are incurred against itself.
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/202 ... ly-untrue/
I thought this was commonly known. Or are there still those naively believing that our government owns the central banks and that the American Government own The Federal Reserve etc!
I am curious Scott - who do you think owns the Bank of England?

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/Knowled ... of-england
Old Hob
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Old Hob »

While the discussion of macro-economics may be diverting, I would like to re-draw your attention to the fact that, according to the new Wasps CEO they don't have funds and they don't have a ground; yet the RFU says they're in. Curious, non?

Reference:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64050985
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Scott1
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by Scott1 »

teds wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:04 pm
Scott1 wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:33 pm
jgriffin wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:25 pm
National taxes are not ringfenced to fund anything but are used to give value to the currency by recycling (which is politically determined), and are manipulated to slow or speed up circulation of money. The 'taxpayer myth' is tackled in many contemporary economics publications as an example of a political lie, along with 'the nation cannot afford' despite being a fiat currency. Most debts incurred by government are incurred against itself.
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/202 ... ly-untrue/
I thought this was commonly known. Or are there still those naively believing that our government owns the central banks and that the American Government own The Federal Reserve etc!
I am curious Scott - who do you think owns the Bank of England?

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/Knowled ... of-england
What's the point? I would only be called a tin foil hat wearing conspiring theorist. But there's enough info out there if you want to read it,and believe it. Up to you teds
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mol2
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by mol2 »

Ideally the nature or form of the P shares needs to change. Becoming an entitlement to payment rather than being a share means that it cannot be seen as an asset that can be taken on by whoever buys up a club in Receivership or administration. Any club going bust (or relegated for more than a season) should see the P share benefits distributed to the remaining teams.
Promoted sides should be permitted to acquire a P share at a discounted rate if they don’t hold one already.

Effectively a P share for each team in the Premiership and one with the relegated side to buffer the impact of relegation on a side with a Premiership squad to pay.
sk 88
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by sk 88 »

Old Hob wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:00 pm While the discussion of macro-economics may be diverting, I would like to re-draw your attention to the fact that, according to the new Wasps CEO they don't have funds and they don't have a ground; yet the RFU says they're in. Curious, non?

Reference:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64050985
To be fair to the RFU the statements says "approved subject to a number of specific conditions being met and that it would continue to work with the bidders through the satisfaction of those conditions over the coming weeks."

I.e. those conditions have not yet been met.

This suggests to me that Wasps have:
1) a fit & proper owner in the RFU's eyes

2) agreed with the conditions the RFU have set down to resume,

but 3) have not actually met them all yet.
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mol2
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Re: Wasps in the mire - now in administration

Post by mol2 »

The fit and proper owner needs definition so that it can be fairly applied to all and be free of favouritism.
Be that Tigers, Wasps or any other club.

Regret that a historic club (like Wasps) has gone under should not mean it has any greater right to exist or receive preferential opportunities to return in the Championship or elsewhere.

Personally I think it profoundly wrong that the Premiership remain ring fenced in the future or even worse a franchise competition. Could you imagine, for example, Bath went bust and new owners buy the name and take over Tigers franchise.
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