The next England Coach.

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Scott1
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Re: The next England Coach.

Post by Scott1 »

ABClub wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:59 pm We won one scrum penalty all game. Hence the 3 scrum put ins, one penalty stat. First scrum Marler and Kruis came on for at the start of the second half England got a penalty. The Boks won their fourth scrum pen with Marler on the field as well though.

Basically the side with the put in were largely on top in the scrum. The Boks just had 11 scrum feeds to England's three because of how high our error count was.

The Boks had one of those great games where everything clicked for them. It happens.
Yes I fully well know! Tell that to those blaming Eddie Jones for the loss!
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Tiglon
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Re: The next England Coach.

Post by Tiglon »

England came so close to losing that WC final in 2003 - such fine margins that mean Sir Clive and every player involved are heroes, whereas Eddie and half his team are useless. I don't get it, personally, but each to their own.

Play the 2003 and 2019 finals another 20 times each and England probably win half of each of them.

Destroying NZ means nothing whereas scraping past Australia makes you a genius?

The heroes and legends are never quite as brilliant as some would have you believe, and the nearly-men never quite as flawed. It's the same in pretty much every walk of life.
mol2
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Re: The next England Coach.

Post by mol2 »

2003? But for a clueless ref that allowed Australia to negate England's scrum dominance it would have been a walkover.

Had Ben Kay not fluffed a simple take the game would have been out of sight.

As for 2019 the key error was picking Macko against a big scrum. Marler coming on made a huge difference. Yes the KO of Sinckler was important but Cole can play a full 80 and did so.
May and Manu were not fit yet Jones selected them.
voice of the crumbie
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Re: The next England Coach.

Post by voice of the crumbie »

....will be an electric vehicle :smt003

My coat is on and buttoned up!
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!
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Re: The next England Coach.

Post by dunc »

Scott1 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:20 pm What I mean by that is I believe that NZ team with McCaw,Read,Kaino,Dagg,Ben Smith,Conrad Smith,Nonu etc etc probably would have cleaned up regardless of whoever was coach but then again we always get told that SCW was the mastermind behind 2003 so perhaps it varies by situation
But what about the all blacks with Mehrtens, Marshall, Fitzpatrick, Kronfeld, Zinzan, Lomu, Cullen, Wilson. They didn’t win many World Cups
fentiger
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Re: The next England Coach.

Post by fentiger »

voice of the crumbie wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:04 am ....will be an electric vehicle :smt003

My coat is on and buttoned up!
As we've made little progress under Eddie I was thinking Bedford Duple :smt044
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Re: The next England Coach.

Post by Smudge »

Looking at Scott Robertson's CV, he certainly appears to have the potential. So much so, the All Blacks job could be his for the taking! However, that job rarely becomes available so getting him away from Crusaders would be the main obstacle.

Any more suggestions?
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trendylfj
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Re: The next England Coach.

Post by trendylfj »

Don't usually post via rugbypass but this article by Clive Woodward is worth a read and I can't fault CW's comments.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/clive-wo ... die-jones/
Hehehehehehehehe
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Re: The next England Coach.

Post by Smudge »

A life long Tiger
mol2
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Re: The next England Coach.

Post by mol2 »

ABClub wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:59 pm We won one scrum penalty all game. Hence the 3 scrum put ins, one penalty stat. First scrum Marler and Kruis came on for at the start of the second half England got a penalty. The Boks won their fourth scrum pen with Marler on the field as well though.

Basically the side with the put in were largely on top in the scrum. The Boks just had 11 scrum feeds to England's three because of how high our error count was.

The Boks had one of those great games where everything clicked for them. It happens.
If you have the put in, you effectively have control of the scrum. If your scrum is weak you have the option of getting the ball out quickly to avoid conceding a penalty. If your scrum is dominant you can chose to keep the ball in on your own put in and inducing a penalty. That's why the 11 scrums England conceded in the final were costly. You pick a relatively lightweight scrummaging pack at your peril when the opposition's pick a heavyweight one. Jones selected a pack to give the South Africans the run around but it all unravelled with Sinckler's KO and the selection of Macko at loose head and not starting Kruis to give extra grunt in the engine room.

The mistake was assuming that what worked against NZ would work against SA. In reality SA were a much more powerful scrum than NZ.

That's the Jones conundrum. Capable of delivering a side that can win but doesn't seem to consider the opposition. Your best 15 players are not always the best 15 to beat each side. Let alone if you shoehorn players into unfamiliar positions. Daly is not a full back. Does not command the air. Utility bench player because he can cover a number of positions but not a starter.

England have a bottleneck in the centres. Expecting miracles from the fly half is silly if there isn't a running threat outside him to create space. Playing 2 centres who shy away from contact is an issue. Neither are crash ball merchants to be fair and one of your centres has to be offer this.

A game when you dominate possession and territory yet fail to score shows a major attacking issue is present. The constant churn of coaches under Jones cannot be ignored.
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Re: The next England Coach.

Post by Scott1 »

dunc wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:08 am
Scott1 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:20 pm What I mean by that is I believe that NZ team with McCaw,Read,Kaino,Dagg,Ben Smith,Conrad Smith,Nonu etc etc probably would have cleaned up regardless of whoever was coach but then again we always get told that SCW was the mastermind behind 2003 so perhaps it varies by situation
But what about the all blacks with Mehrtens, Marshall, Fitzpatrick, Kronfeld, Zinzan, Lomu, Cullen, Wilson. They didn’t win many World Cups
Great point! And don't forget Hansen was an absolute disaster at Wales so i don't think there's a definitive answer
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Tiglon
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Re: The next England Coach.

Post by Tiglon »

I'm getting confused now, in another thread I was told in no uncertain terms that Daly at 13 is ridiculous because he is a full back, he is not familiar with playing 13 and that Eddie should be sacked for being so stupid. :smt017

I agree that with so much possession and territory that to score so few points is an issue. I'm not sure it's 100% an issue with the backs (although I agree the balance is not right).

We say the England forwards dominated the Scottish forwards, but I'm not so sure that's true. Scotland caused issues at the lineout, were seriously disruptive at the breakdown and were defensively excellent. Scotland's forwards missed 4 tackles all game (out of a lot) while England's forwards missed 9 (out of not very many). There is an issue with the backs, but the forwards were lacking in certain areas too.
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Re: The next England Coach.

Post by Tiglon »

Scott1 wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:29 am
dunc wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:08 am
Scott1 wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:20 pm What I mean by that is I believe that NZ team with McCaw,Read,Kaino,Dagg,Ben Smith,Conrad Smith,Nonu etc etc probably would have cleaned up regardless of whoever was coach but then again we always get told that SCW was the mastermind behind 2003 so perhaps it varies by situation
But what about the all blacks with Mehrtens, Marshall, Fitzpatrick, Kronfeld, Zinzan, Lomu, Cullen, Wilson. They didn’t win many World Cups
Great point! And don't forget Hansen was an absolute disaster at Wales so i don't think there's a definitive answer
Is it possible that, in knockout sport, there is also an element of chance?

The later stages of the RWC are decided by split second decisions and actions - no player or coach, no matter how good, gets them right all the time so any team has the capability to lose.

We are talking about human beings, not robots - over the course of Dan Carter's career, for example, he may have been the best player in the world, but that doesn't mean there weren't days when he was one of the poorer players on the pitch.
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Re: The next England Coach.

Post by Smudge »

Mol2 wrote
by mol2 » Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:12 am

ABClub wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:59 pm
We won one scrum penalty all game. Hence the 3 scrum put ins, one penalty stat. First scrum Marler and Kruis came on for at the start of the second half England got a penalty. The Boks won their fourth scrum pen with Marler on the field as well though.

Basically the side with the put in were largely on top in the scrum. The Boks just had 11 scrum feeds to England's three because of how high our error count was.

The Boks had one of those great games where everything clicked for them. It happens.
If you have the put in, you effectively have control of the scrum. If your scrum is weak you have the option of getting the ball out quickly to avoid conceding a penalty. If your scrum is dominant you can chose to keep the ball in on your own put in and inducing a penalty. That's why the 11 scrums England conceded in the final were costly. You pick a relatively lightweight scrummaging pack at your peril when the opposition's pick a heavyweight one. Jones selected a pack to give the South Africans the run around but it all unravelled with Sinckler's KO and the selection of Macko at loose head and not starting Kruis to give extra grunt in the engine room.

The mistake was assuming that what worked against NZ would work against SA. In reality SA were a much more powerful scrum than NZ.

That's the Jones conundrum. Capable of delivering a side that can win but doesn't seem to consider the opposition. Your best 15 players are not always the best 15 to beat each side. Let alone if you shoehorn players into unfamiliar positions. Daly is not a full back. Does not command the air. Utility bench player because he can cover a number of positions but not a starter.

England have a bottleneck in the centres. Expecting miracles from the fly half is silly if there isn't a running threat outside him to create space. Playing 2 centres who shy away from contact is an issue. Neither are crash ball merchants to be fair and one of your centres has to be offer this.

A game when you dominate possession and territory yet fail to score shows a major attacking issue is present. The constant churn of coaches under Jones cannot be ignored.
Top post Mol2
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aslongaswebeatsaints
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Re: The next England Coach.

Post by aslongaswebeatsaints »

I’m a die hard England fan and think EJ got it very wrong at the weekend (Again!)but can’t we just accept that for the first time in a long time Scotland are now a top class team who are playing really well and having their moment? I’m not so sure the result would have been any different whatever England team had played. To put it in Tigers speak, I like Scotlands DNA at the moment.

Personally, with everyone talking about a two horse race between Ireland and France, I’d say its a two horse race between Scotland and Ireland.

Obviously, having said this Wales will now do a job on them!
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