Wasps (A) - Sunday 9th January 2022 - 3pm

[Big Dai]

Plea to moderators - any chance we can have two threads for each match chat? One in which all mention of officials is prohibited, and one where people are free to post 101 different ways in which Tigers were hard done by as a result of incompetent and/or biased refereeing.

I’ll obviously stick to the first of these - although just to dip my toe into the latter waters, I’ll note that I sat surrounded by Wasps fans bemoaning Foley’s performance as “Tigers 16th man”, arguing he was allowing us to constantly come offside and that Genge should definitely have seen red!

Apart from the obvious disappointment at the loss today I do feel the officials played a large part. The award of a contentious penalty try to the opposition, which I feel the best referee in the country might not have given. Then the non issue of a penalty try which I feel the best referee in the country might have given are surely open topics for debate.

In addition, a penalty for a "deliberate knock on": that was clearly preceeded by a black knock on must also come in for scrutiny and debate.

If we are to dissect each decision with incessant intervention from the TMO can what least be consistent? Or, if you wish to remove this from the debate. Carry on.

[chris111]

Plea to moderators - any chance we can have two threads for each match chat? One in which all mention of officials is prohibited, and one where people are free to post 101 different ways in which Tigers were hard done by as a result of incompetent and/or biased refereeing.

I’ll obviously stick to the first of these - although just to dip my toe into the latter waters, I’ll note that I sat surrounded by Wasps fans bemoaning Foley’s performance as “Tigers 16th man”, arguing he was allowing us to constantly come offside and that Genge should definitely have seen red!

Of course, you don’t have to read the threads if you don’t want to.. beauty of a forum is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I read your earlier post and if I’m honest I didn’t agree with you thoughts but that’s your opinion so I respect that.. I have my thoughts about today as do others.

Personally I thought the better team lost today. I thought we were very poor and way of our best and today was our worst performance of the season but Wasps were too and aside from a penalty try (which had plenty to debate about it) they scored 3 penalties in 80 minutes. On the flip side we scored one try, had a few disallowed (rightly or wrongly), missed a few kicks and lost by 3 points.

Fine margins but for me Foley and Kitt definitely had a hand in the result today. Perhaps the calls on the disallowed tries were correct, maybe and very probably Ellis should have got a red card but the rub of the green was definitely in Wasps favour all match and certainly in the final 10 and in a 3 point loss that makes the difference for me.

I like reading the differing views and I actually agree with those that say the officials had an off game today. There, I said it.. demote me to thread B with the official mentioners!

It wasn’t a completely serious post - more of an allusion to the one-eyed nature of pretty much any sports fan (in this case, the predicable divergence between Wasps and Tigers fans take on the referee’s performance today)! I do enjoy the different perspectives on here - although admit that I usually skip through posts that focus solely on refereeing decisions.

On my earlier post, watching live I felt Wasps deserved the win, primarily because they appeared to have so much more energy and drive. I’ve got the recording to watch at some point, however - and my change my mind then. Games often look very different on camera.

[OakhamTiger32]

Plea to moderators - any chance we can have two threads for each match chat? One in which all mention of officials is prohibited, and one where people are free to post 101 different ways in which Tigers were hard done by as a result of incompetent and/or biased refereeing.

I’ll obviously stick to the first of these - although just to dip my toe into the latter waters, I’ll note that I sat surrounded by Wasps fans bemoaning Foley’s performance as “Tigers 16th man”, arguing he was allowing us to constantly come offside and that Genge should definitely have seen red!

Of course, you don’t have to read the threads if you don’t want to.. beauty of a forum is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I read your earlier post and if I’m honest I didn’t agree with you thoughts but that’s your opinion so I respect that.. I have my thoughts about today as do others.

Personally I thought the better team lost today. I thought we were very poor and way of our best and today was our worst performance of the season but Wasps were too and aside from a penalty try (which had plenty to debate about it) they scored 3 penalties in 80 minutes. On the flip side we scored one try, had a few disallowed (rightly or wrongly), missed a few kicks and lost by 3 points.

Fine margins but for me Foley and Kitt definitely had a hand in the result today. Perhaps the calls on the disallowed tries were correct, maybe and very probably Ellis should have got a red card but the rub of the green was definitely in Wasps favour all match and certainly in the final 10 and in a 3 point loss that makes the difference for me.

I like reading the differing views and I actually agree with those that say the officials had an off game today. There, I said it.. demote me to thread B with the official mentioners!

It wasn’t a completely serious post - more of an allusion to the one-eyed nature of pretty much any sports fan (in this case, the predicable divergence between Wasps and Tigers fans take on the referee’s performance today)! I do enjoy the different perspectives on here - although admit that I usually skip through posts that focus solely on refereeing decisions.

On my earlier post, watching live I felt Wasps deserved the win, primarily because they appeared to have so much more energy and drive. I’ve got the recording to watch at some point, however - and my change my mind then. Games often look very different on camera.

Fair point and equally I wasn’t at the game unlike you.. I hate blaming the officials and up to now we have played them out of the game, and even had the rub of the green go our way a few times it’s just today felt like a match from last season and personally I do think the officials played their part in the result. When you play badly and the tight calls don’t go your way it’s always a miserable watch and hard to take after the run we’ve been on

[westwinds31]

......He's a Gloucester fan! He's been crowing a bit since yesterday....it's all good prop v second row fun!

How does he feel about losing most of their back line for the 6 Nations period ?

After the post dinner Remy....which the ladies served anyway......regardless of result....I asked him.

He said "Cough"

At least, give or take the Oxbridge accent, that's what I think he said.

Lol

[JayC2]

Ref/TMO definitely affected the match score.

As a one eyed tiger, no pen try for them and clearly should have been one for us.

The disallowed try was 50:50 so I can accept that decision, and Genge could have seen red on another day.

but 14 points the other way in a 3 point game means the ref/TMO unfortunately decided the result today.

Having said that, today was our worst performance of the season and we looked knackered in the last 15 minutes whilst Wasps had all the momentum (except at scrum time) 2nd half. With just one more fit back row I do think we would have won today though....

Get some guys back, have a rest and move on...

[bendy]

Just back from the match - trying to take the positives, it's good to get that "unbeaten run" monkey off our back.

The general consensus on the supporters bus seemed to be that Genge will be very lucky not to be cited for his slap / punch / gouge. I've got to admit, when I saw it, I thought it was a clear red. Did the TV analysis provide some mitigation? Think we only saw one angle in the stadium, so he may not have even connected for all I know?

[nicmattyg]

If Pearce or Barnes reffed that game we’d have won.

If Wiese/Hanro/MVS we’re playing we would probably have won.

If Ford would’ve kicked those 6 pts, or any of the disallowed tries stood we’d have won.

And we were poor generally I thought.

The frustration is that wasps were poor too, and the team we had out was good enough to beat them comfortably. Makers of our own undoing today, no point blaming anyone else.

Truth be told I feel a loss at this stage will do us more good than bad, eradicate any complacency that may be setting in and keep us grounded.

As other have said, silverware is won towards the end of the season and not now.

I am however a little concerned that our attack feels like it has lost its potency lately and today it was frankly very blunt. Largely due to the lack of gain line monsters we usually have available.

Our defence (which is the best in the league) is what has put us in this position, along with the kicking/territory based game plan, but when the sun is shining in twickenham in June, will that be enough? Time will tell! The fact we’re even in the reckoning after the last few seasons should be enough to keep us happy for now….

[BigDan50]

Couldn’t get to the game today but just watched a recording of it whilst reading comments of posters on here in time as the game was played.
So many posters on here haven’t a clue about the laws of the game, when we are winning we get no adverse remarks about how useless the ref is but when we are losing the ref is the most biased, useless and incompetent etc, etc.
Thought the ref had a decent game with incorrect decisions against both sides but always a fair ref.
We lost because Wasps were the better side in the second in the second half and deserved their win.
Chat on here saying Gopperth is on his way, would be thrilled if we signed him as still a class act, playing much better than George at the moment, George has become a boring fly half, never challenges the line and kicks all the time, he’s gone backwards over the last couple of seasons and you can understand why he’s not in contention for an England place.
Never mind onwards and upwards!!!

[BigDan50]

Watching the replay it looked to me that Genge pulled the wasps players hair, looking like he could be cited and a reasonable ban forthcoming.

[Offside]

Have to question why we kept on scrumming 5m out. I know we’ve a quality front row but surely all the analysts have told them there’s a higher success rate in going to the corner. Especially given how many tries we’ve scored off the back of lineouts. You never see penalty tries from scrums anymore.

I think the repeated scrums had more to do with Ellis getting a yellow card and wanting to display the size of his manhood than sensible tactics to win the game, considering our history of maul vs pushover tries. If Whitcombe is 2 years older and Genge is not captain he does not come back on after that. Very lucky to not be red with the hair pull too. Ellis has been very composed in recent years so something must have been said or done to get such a reaction.

[Tiglon]

Substitutions these days aren't always about how well someone is playing, they're about how well someone is likely to play for the remainder of the match. So much data and analysis, the coaches can see when a player is tiring and needs to be replaced before performance drops.

Don't understand where the criticism of us "kicking the ball away" comes from - surely all our wins this season have been heavily based on doing exactly that?

I for one criticise our game plan of kicking it away most weeks and the replies are we are winning so what. Today our kicking game was off, Ford missed 2 conversions he normally gets, chipped ball over top when he shouldn't and we didn't win many of his bombs.
We can play when we move the ball, look at ending to Bristol game, today we took off Harry Potter, he was our best back, he was all over the place, why take him off?
Yes officials were not on our side today, we were unlucky to lose, their first try was so fortunate for them but overall were were poor today and our well publicised kicking game let us down and teams will anticipate how to counter it it more and more.

We can play when we move the ball - because we're good at choosing when to move it and when to kick. I.e. in the opposition half and on quick ball. If you try to move it around in your own half and/or on slow ball, you concede turnovers, you concede points, you win fewer matches and you definitely aren't top of the table in January.

Just because we have now lost one match with a kicking game, it does not mean the gameplan doesn't work or that we should ditch it. Our gameplan is partially built around a very physical back row, who were largely unavailable today. We haven't been "found out", we just had some key players unavailable, made a few errors, made a few decisions that didn't work out, didn't quite execute the gameplan as well as in most matches this season and, yes, had some tough calls from the officials.

[Jimmy Skitz]

Have to question why we kept on scrumming 5m out. I know we’ve a quality front row but surely all the analysts have told them there’s a higher success rate in going to the corner. Especially given how many tries we’ve scored off the back of lineouts. You never see penalty tries from scrums anymore.

I think the repeated scrums had more to do with Ellis getting a yellow card and wanting to display the size of his manhood than sensible tactics to win the game, considering our history of maul vs pushover tries. If Whitcombe is 2 years older and Genge is not captain he does not come back on after that. Very lucky to not be red with the hair pull too. Ellis has been very composed in recent years so something must have been said or done to get such a reaction.

Ellis said that their winger slapped him on the back of his head

[LittleBigG]

As with what other people have said - you can never criticise the officials when you've lost else it just sounds like sour grapes but sod it... the one decision that really grates is that damn penalty try, and if the laws back it up then they are at fault

Hold onto the ball: no try.

Pass the ball: Reffell tackles the player before he can score

Reffell rolled the dice and lost - yellow card all day. But you cannot just pretend that he was not on the pitch and that the other guy would have just waltzed over the line. He WAS the cover - if the pass was made he'd have ended up 3m short of the line - like he did do (just with the ball and the commentators applauding the awesome cover tackle...)

This is a completely different scenario than, say a deliberate knock on that would have gone to hand with a player unopposed.


The yellow card was rightly given because it was a cynical act that prevented a POSSIBLE try

However... a penalty try can only be given if a try was LIKELY to be scored. The most LIKELY scenario is that the tackle would have been made (again, you know... because it was...) or it would have been a forward pass because the player overran

Going in at half time 13-0 would gave given the game a completely different dynamic

This was easily our worst performance of the season but when a contentious 7 points have been awarded to the winning side of a 3 point winning margin it is so easy to be irritated by it!

Onwards and upwards though - we're still 9 points above 3rd place!

[KiwiTig]

Was there live and watched again on TV
It could have gone either way
It was difficult to see why decisions were made during live play so we trusted what was decided
There were mumourings of why we didn’t get some vital decisions but couldn’t see well enough to judge fairly
Having watched it again on TV it wasn’t our best day but we deserved at least a draw
We chose to scrum in the corner and we totally bossed the final few scrums. I do not know what else the pack could have done to convince the ref otherwise

[LE18]

Substitutions these days aren't always about how well someone is playing, they're about how well someone is likely to play for the remainder of the match. So much data and analysis, the coaches can see when a player is tiring and needs to be replaced before performance drops.

Don't understand where the criticism of us "kicking the ball away" comes from - surely all our wins this season have been heavily based on doing exactly that?

I for one criticise our game plan of kicking it away most weeks and the replies are we are winning so what. Today our kicking game was off, Ford missed 2 conversions he normally gets, chipped ball over top when he shouldn't and we didn't win many of his bombs.
We can play when we move the ball, look at ending to Bristol game, today we took off Harry Potter, he was our best back, he was all over the place, why take him off?
Yes officials were not on our side today, we were unlucky to lose, their first try was so fortunate for them but overall were were poor today and our well publicised kicking game let us down and teams will anticipate how to counter it it more and more.

We can play when we move the ball - because we're good at choosing when to move it and when to kick. I.e. in the opposition half and on quick ball. If you try to move it around in your own half and/or on slow ball, you concede turnovers, you concede points, you win fewer matches and you definitely aren't top of the table in January.

Just because we have now lost one match with a kicking game, it does not mean the gameplan doesn't work or that we should ditch it. Our gameplan is partially built around a very physical back row, who were largely unavailable today. We haven't been "found out", we just had some key players unavailable, made a few errors, made a few decisions that didn't work out, didn't quite execute the gameplan as well as in most matches this season and, yes, had some tough calls from the officials.

I'am happy to read your view, its not mine entirely, you make some good points but we are over doing it and when it doesn't work we don't appear to know how to vary it until too late, like another poster has just posted, George Ford is so predictable and I feel bored by it, he can run, why doesn't he do it?