Sort the tackle area out, please!

[DingDong]

Jack Willis today was the result of exactly the consequence of not reffing the breakdown properly. Jackalling is an art currently made dangerous by ineffective refereeing, time World Rugby pulled their fingers out.

[jgriffin]

Jack Willis today was the result of exactly the consequence of not reffing the breakdown properly. Jackalling is an art currently made dangerous by ineffective refereeing, time World Rugby pulled their fingers out.

https://tinyl.io/3WWb
Exactly the point we have all been making, along with Ryan and Monye, but not the only example this weekend of unpunished illegal play at the tackle area.

[voice of the crumbie]

The title of this thread is all wrong. Surely it should be sort out the jackal area

[DingDong]

Another poor example - Zander Fagerson's red card was deserved because it was his choice to go in direct to the head with no arms, but I don't think contact to the head would of occurred had Hogg not illegally attempt to roll off the jackler - ie deliberately collapse a ruck. Had he attempted to legally drive him off I don't think the jacklers head would be so exposed.

[MCC1964]

Another poor example - Zander Fagerson's red card was deserved because it was his choice to go in direct to the head with no arms, but I don't think contact to the head would of occurred had Hogg not illegally attempt to roll off the jackler - ie deliberately collapse a ruck. Had he attempted to legally drive him off I don't think the jacklers head would be so exposed.

But the point in this example is that he chose to go flying into the ruck with no arms AND HIS HEAD DOWN, so regardless of whether the opposing player’s head is exposed or not and how it came to be so exposed, he (Fagerson) is not in control of the contact and so, as you say, his card is deserved. I can’t understand why a lot of people
/pundits have ‘sympathy’ with him in this situation?

[DingDong]

Like you I have no sympathy, his choice. Only pointing out that had the breakdown been sorted from the start then he would be back on the pitch after 10 mins which makes a difference to the rest of the game and the probable result.

[BFG]

I think the key to cleaning up the entire process from tackle to ruck is ensuring that a proper ball presentation is allowed to take place.
It creates more space for the battle and gives a clearer view.
Everything has become too congested.
Diving in the ruck happened even in the old days, if a jackalling player denied a proper ball presentation then he'd be fired out the back of the ruck.

[BengalTiger]

"The purpose of a ruck is to allow players to compete for the ball which is on the ground" from the laws of rugby.

A Jackal can only take place before a ruck is formed, i.e at the tackle after the tackler has released the tackled player and the tackled player has the opportunity to place the ball, (the tackled player cannot play the ball without first releasing it)
As soon as there is a player from both team (on their feet) it is now a ruck and the defending player must stop trying to pick up the ball or he must be penalised ( unless he has clearly picked the ball up off the ground before the ruck is formed, in which case there is no ruck but the ball is in open play).
If the laws were applied there is no need to clear out the jackaller, just touching him renders him in an illegal position
"A ruck is formed when at least one player from each team are in contact, on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground." ( so if the defending player has not lifted the ball it is on the ground and cannot be then picked up)
What is going wrong is that the rule about players having their heads above their hips at the ruck is not enforced,
"Players involved in all stages of the ruck must have their heads and shoulders no lower than their hips. Sanction: Free-kick".
Weak refereeing has again caused a mess in the game.

[ourla]

How does latching/pods work with the laws?

That is to say these pick and drives, where one or more players other than the ball carrier are already together going into the tackle. Have they formed a ruck pre-tackle or is it a rolling maul or nothing?

And does that negate the possibility of competition/jackal?

Additionally it seems to me from BengalTiger's explanation that on tackle you can jackal, when a player comes into form a ruck you can't but then when the ball is presented and deemed "out" you can again. Is that about correct?

[Old Hob]

Quote:
"A ruck is formed when at least one player from each team are in contact, on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground." ( so if the defending player has not lifted the ball it is on the ground and cannot be then picked up)
What is going wrong is that the rule about players having their heads above their hips at the ruck is not enforced,
"Players involved in all stages of the ruck must have their heads and shoulders no lower than their hips. Sanction: Free-kick".
Weak refereeing has again caused a mess in the game.
This is fundamentally the old law that those of us playing in the 60's and 70's knew. At which point, players would have to heel the ball back. As everyone nowadays is lying on the floor how is the ball coming back without the use of hands? Or feet?? Illegally is the answer. SO enforce the heads above hips law and allow hooking with the feet as everybody used to. It could be messy in the old days but with modern interpretation could be a quick way of recycling

[BengalTiger]

How does latching/pods work with the laws?
Nothing illegal about latching, the refs are asking that latching happens only after the ball is in the possession of the player at the front, this is just for safety and the prevent obstruction.
That is to say these pick and drives, where one or more players other than the ball carrier are already together going into the tackle. Have they formed a ruck pre-tackle or is it a rolling maul or nothing?
A ruck can only be formed with the ball on the ground, a maul is only formed when the opposition engage, so there is a risk of obstruction if the opposition cannot tackle the ball carrier
And does that negate the possibility of competition/jackal?

Additionally it seems to me from BengalTiger's explanation that on tackle you can jackal, when a player comes into form a ruck you can't but then when the ball is presented and deemed "out" you can again. Is that about correct?

Not really, only the team that has clearly won the ball at the ruck can play it out of the ruck by picking it up , however if the ball comes clearly out of the ruck it is then available to any player to play

[GETHIN EXILE]

"Nothing illegal about latching, the refs are asking that latching happens only after the ball is in the possession of the player at the front, this is just for safety and the prevent obstruction." What is illegal is the latched on players going to ground on top of the ball carrier when a tackle is made - they have a duty to stay on their feet and form a ruck. The other big issue is the first players from the ball carrier's side dropping to 1 knee on arrival at the tackle or placing their hands in front of the ball carrier on the floor, there was a time when you find that the incoming defenders would stand on your fingers if you had a hand on the ground. I am not suggesting a return to this just that players be reminded that once any part of them other than the soles of the feet is on the ground they have a duty to roll away.

[GETHIN EXILE]

" Not really, only the team that has clearly won the ball at the ruck can play it out of the ruck by picking it up , however if the ball comes clearly out of the ruck it is then available to any player to play" The ball is out once it is behind the back foot - the practice of scum halves stepping into the ruck to pick the ball up needs to be refereed as "hands in the ruck". Referees need to be reminded that presenting the ball by holding it up with a supporting player bound over the top does not constitute a ruck as the ball is not on the ground. if players hold the ball off the ground after they have been tackled they should be penalised.

[BFG]

"The purpose of a ruck is to allow players to compete for the ball which is on the ground" from the laws of rugby.

A Jackal can only take place before a ruck is formed, i.e at the tackle after the tackler has released the tackled player and the tackled player has the opportunity to place the ball, (the tackled player cannot play the ball without first releasing it)
As soon as there is a player from both team (on their feet) it is now a ruck and the defending player must stop trying to pick up the ball or he must be penalised ( unless he has clearly picked the ball up off the ground before the ruck is formed, in which case there is no ruck but the ball is in open play).
If the laws were applied there is no need to clear out the jackaller, just touching him renders him in an illegal position
"A ruck is formed when at least one player from each team are in contact, on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground." ( so if the defending player has not lifted the ball it is on the ground and cannot be then picked up)
What is going wrong is that the rule about players having their heads above their hips at the ruck is not enforced,
"Players involved in all stages of the ruck must have their heads and shoulders no lower than their hips. Sanction: Free-kick".
Weak refereeing has again caused a mess in the game.

That's the way I always understood it.
If I recall correctly things started to change due to players charging in to compete who were basically not in control (couldn't stop) of their momentum.
The entire process has been squeezed since.

[ourla]

Sounds like a mess to be honest. And I am not sure how it should be sorted.

I think we all accept that if you don't look after the ball you deserved to be turned over. So interceptions, rips, when a carrier is isolated when tackled and support is slow. But maybe that is as far as it should go?