Progress Under Borthwick

[Cardiff Tig]

I think the bigger question is will SB make any more progress. Or will he be like Gustard.

[RichieB]

Maybe a question also of how patient some of the key players are going to be. For example how likely is it that someone like Nadolo will stay past his current contract because he buys in to the progress being made in the club and the vision and environment created by the head coach?
Many top players come to a club in the hope/expectation of winning silverware, obviously as well as the money. If Tigers continue to struggle on the pitch with little sign of improvement and progression in terms of the win/loss ratio then we could find that quality players are more difficult to attract and even more difficult to retain resulting in higher churn. I suspect Taufua falls into this category, not purely about money although no doubt that was part of it.

[loretta]

Maybe a question also of how patient some of the key players are going to be. For example how likely is it that someone like Nadolo will stay past his current contract because he buys in to the progress being made in the club and the vision and environment created by the head coach?
Many top players come to a club in the hope/expectation of winning silverware, obviously as well as the money. If Tigers continue to struggle on the pitch with little sign of improvement and progression in terms of the win/loss ratio then we could find that quality players are more difficult to attract and even more difficult to retain resulting in higher churn. I suspect Taufua falls into this category, not purely about money although no doubt that was part of it.

Not so sure about that last part. JT hasn't really been here long enough to be disappointed with progress. But if that's the case, I'd have to say he's very naive.

[wellstiger]

Agree , progress will be slow. Incremental positives in the right direction. However stupid mindset at challenging everything at breakdown giving away penalties is killing us. Hope training is correcting this mindset.
Glouc seam to be where we were two seasons ago so attention is on them.
Attack coach is needed ASAP.

[MurphysLaw]

Most people agree that Tigers have a stronger and fitter squad (thanks largely to the efforts of McGinity and Walters), and so the question is are these players performing better as a team under SB?
In a limited way, maybe. Generally, Tigers are becoming more difficult to beat - there is a general physicality, especially in defence. The structured game is okay with the line out usually reliable. However, for me the jury is still out.There is little by way of creative attacking play, (especially when Ford is missing), and still too much aimless kicking ( Murphy's tactics, according to some!).
Discipline is still poor.
Off the pitch, I do think things have regressed in some ways. The coaches that left have not been replaced, and so there is an inexperienced Head Coach leading a fairly inexperienced coaching team (apart from Ford snr and AW). I hope that the Board are giving SB the support he needs, and things are not reverting to the days when cocker had too much on his shoulders.
As others have mentioned, communication with the fans has dropped off somewhat, although it does seem that Bondi is now conducting interviews again.
It is still early days of course, and no-one expects overnight success, but the next couple of games will be interesting.

[westwinds31]

Problems with discipline occur when we’re under pressure. Our yellow card numbers aren’t great (see below). It shows how good the effort was in Bayonne after 3 cards. We need to keep 15 men on the field to have a chance and errors that put us in vulnerable positions don’t help.

Gloucester - 1Y (Green)
Irish - 1Y (Van Wyk)
Exeter - 1Y (Simmons)
Brive - 0
Bayonne - 3Y (Brink, LadyG, Heyes)
Bath - 1Y (Wiese)
Sale - 2Y (LadyG, Wells)

Some of the cards have been ridiculous mind you. Ref against Bayonne didn’t have a clue and Simmons getting a yellow against Exeter was fair enough but they should have had a red for that illegal clear out on Simmons head. Sale game once again I felt almost our first infringements ended up with a yellow despite no warning first and sale repeatedly infringed in the first half but didn’t even get a warning.

I agree with you however that we need to sort this out but I just wonder why we always seem to be on the receiving end when other sides get more luck (like the Exeter game where nobody showed any interest in the potential red card whereas against us the TMO is only too ready to jump in first chance he gets).

Perhaps we need to be smarter, perhaps we need to play the referee better but certainly we need to improve this statistic you are right.

Of course there’s an easy way around this. Don’t make silly errors that put you under pressure that could lead to a potential yellow card.

[Dangerous4]

Oh woe is me!

[kk20gb30]

Personally I see this more of 'A work in progress under Borthwick' - and it is still too early to judge.
I believe only now are we beginning to see what Steve Borthwick actually wants from the first team - initially despite what was being said I tended to suspect that we were witnessing a hybrid or compromise of selection criteria from Borthwick and Geordan Murphy.Now we have one vision and it must be given a chance to either succeed or fail.
Covid has seen The Club twice hit as a whole and we do not know how many other individual cases within the playing staff there have been.Training has been disrupted , regular match-days have been disrupted making time to jell and settle as a new unit almost impossible.
I retain belief that we are moving along the right lines, note also the lack of (permanent) attack and scrum coach .Once this has been formalized we will be in a better place.Effective and winning Rugby is what is required , it was searching (in vain ) for the beautiful and esoteric that saw our strengths and values lost.Steve Borthwick could be the man to bring these facets back and I really don't much care how he does it.

[DingDong]

We've never had a more capable and relevant coach, not since Cockers (temporarily) lost touch. Sometimes patience is hard to find in particular last friday!! but when you consider our back row and entire back line are virtually new this season, you have to find that extra bit of patience from somewhere. Small steps but in the right direction.

[jgriffin]

We've never had a more capable and relevant coach, not since Cockers (temporarily) lost touch. Sometimes patience is hard to find in particular last friday!! but when you consider our back row and entire back line are virtually new this season, you have to find that extra bit of patience from somewhere. Small steps but in the right direction.

It takes a long time to build a culture at a club that is enduring, but not long to dismantle it. Ours has been dismantled for some years! It is also difficult to cope when all we have is change - that is not just due to the plague but is reflected in the short-termism of Craig at Bath for example, where what is a good squad on paper is fast becoming woeful on the park.
We are moving in the right direction - some things are excellent, some variable, some disappointing. That's life, not just sport.

[Noggs]

Like everyone else I was hoping for more against Sale although some of the decisions that Tempest made didn't help. That said, it is not an excuse for a below par performance.

We do have far to travel to get to where we need to be but it would be untrue to say that we have not started along the road. I am reasonable happy with SB's performance to date and as others have said it is far too soon to be judging his capabilities in this role. We do need to show a bit of patience.

[aslongaswebeatsaints]

Easy

Week after a loss = “he’s not the Messiah, he’s a very naughty boy”

Week after a win = “ Always look on the bright side of life “

[trendylfj]

I really don't see how anyone can say we have not made any progress under SB - it may not be as much as we want, it may not be as much as SB or the players want but we are a better side than last year. Fitness and defence are much better and I would argue that most of the points against have come from interceptions, our mistakes and refs decisions which sometimes have been hard to understand. Why it is a penalty if you are trapped by the opposition and it is impossible to get away from the ruck no matter how hard you try is beyond me! Yes, sometimes you could and don't but sides, including us, are skilled at trapping players. What is missing as most fan's say is a well-organised attack led by a world-class attack coach and the sooner we get one the better. For me more important than players at present - who? - not got a clue.

[Noggs]

The argument about players being 'trapped in' is a difficult one.

Some refs do say '...no, you're holding him in...' which is a judgement call whilst other use the more simple rule that it is always the player on the ground who is at fault because he shouldn't be in that position in the first place. For me a good ref will adhere to the latter in general unless the holding in is very obvious and deliberate.

[TigerFeetSteve]

The argument about players being 'trapped in' is a difficult one.

Some refs do say '...no, you're holding him in...' which is a judgement call whilst other use the more simple rule that it is always the player on the ground who is at fault because he shouldn't be in that position in the first place. For me a good ref will adhere to the latter in general unless the holding in is very obvious and deliberate.

There is also a point about the fact a player can be trapped in/on the wrong side unable to get away which doesn't get penalised, however if a team then jackles the ball you get penalised. Technically the one on the ground is "officially" pinged but they wouldn't be a penalty apart from the fact they can't allow a team to benefit from the player on the wrong side.