European Challenge Cup - Cardiff vs Tigers

[RichieB]

It is neither reasonable nor logical to try to field the 'strongest' squad for each match. There are a number of reasons this won't work, for example:
1) Tactical changes to deal with specific threats and opportunities against a particular opposition
2) Giving emerging talent the opportunity to develop
3) Resting players who have had a heavy workload or international commitments
4) Players recovering from injury

Without knowing the full extent of all of these issues, it is not my place to advocate the best side to play this particular fixture. I do however expect them to be competitive whichever side is selected. In an ideal world, we would have a settled side, which is improving each week and getting used to winning rather than getting used to losing. Given a preference, if I were Head Coach, I would seriously look at the tactical importance of this particular match on this particular pitch and I might therefore 'protect' certain players for a more critical game against Saints. NOTE - I am not and never have been a professional rugby coach, so these are purely my thoughts and observations.

[MurphysLaw]

[quote="Cardiff Tig" post_id=728100 time=1574333914 user_id=9259]
It's incredibly disappointing that this club, that supposedly spends up to the cap, feels the need to play weakened sides in only the second pool game of a European cup competition.

If the coaching team can't manage to move towards the top 6 of the premiership and progress out of the Challenge Cup pool phase in the same season then they need to leave ASAP. Maybe we'll play a weakened side at the weekend and win, or we'll play a strong side and win. But if we field a weak team and get hammered then it's time for these guys to seriously ask what they are trying to achieve right now.
[/quote]

Ordinarily, I might agree with you.But you do not seem to have taken account of the world cup factor.
Pau did not send their strongest team last weekend, and they do not have anything like the number of world cup players in their squad. Should their coaches walk if they don't make it out of the group? Of course not, they are prioritising their league and perhaps home matches in this comp. Personally, in the circumstances, I would be happy to see Tigers do the same.

[sam16111986]

It's incredibly disappointing that this club, that supposedly spends up to the cap, feels the need to play weakened sides in only the second pool game of a European cup competition.

If the coaching team can't manage to move towards the top 6 of the premiership and progress out of the Challenge Cup pool phase in the same season then they need to leave ASAP. Maybe we'll play a weakened side at the weekend and win, or we'll play a strong side and win. But if we field a weak team and get hammered then it's time for these guys to seriously ask what they are trying to achieve right now.

Maybe they are trying to achieve European progression and move up the Prem table. To do so they need to manage their resources. It has been done to death that the England players are limited under the EPS agreement to how many games they can play. The club do not need to prioritise this game to meet either of the goals of European progression or premiership advancement. Ergo it would be good management to not send our England players down to Cardiff to play on their plastic pitch.

There are a number of senior players coming back from injury that need game time and a number of youngsters pushing for a chance. It's a good chance to give those guys game time. Competition in the squad for places is never a bad thing.

[DingDong]

Pau are third in their league, they have a strong team foundation both in style of play and confidence, so they are in a comfortable position to apply strategy to their team selections and risk a loss, we are not! Every game going forward is vital to re-build the squad, you only have to watch a replay of our last Prem game versus London Irish to realise how unbelievably far off we are. Ben, Coley, Genge, Fordy and Manu are back playing, as are Lavanini and Kalamafoni, so I don't see any issues there from last week. Once stability is restored then rest them for EPS reasons and to strengthen the replacements.

[jgriffin]

Be crazy to send the best squad to Cardiff. Tigers' priority is top 6 in the Prem. One bad result in the Prem can be weathered more easily than in the ECC (especially the knock out stages), and we have to regain our position in the top half of the table. So save the England players for the Prem and home at WR in the ECC.

[Mark62]

Be crazy to send the best squad to Cardiff. Tigers' priority is top 6 in the Prem. One bad result in the Prem can be weathered more easily than in the ECC (especially the knock out stages), and we have to regain our position in the top half of the table. So save the England players for the Prem and home at WR in the ECC.

Completely agree tbh a starting side such as Genge, TPN, Lady Gaga, Green, Wells, Taufua, Reffel, Kalamafoni, White, Hardwick, Olowefela, Reid, Taute, Thomstone, Viljoen, should be moe than good enough to get at least a lbp on a fast track.

Put Genge and Taufua in as need some game time if fit

[Cardiff Tig]

I guess my point is the difference between a weak side and a strong side. Only Cole really needs rest in the forward pack, and even then he should be on the bench.

An away win in Cardiff and qualification is a long way towards being wrapped up. Calvisano doubleheader is an opportunity to rest the stars, and then the pressure is lower for the Cardiff home game and effectively zero for the Pau away game. There's an incredibly high chance of 5 wins if we win this weekend, and probably 6 because Pau will probably lose interest even at home if they can't qualify. It just seems incredibly short-sighted if we send a weak team.

I'm not against targeted resting of certain players for any game. But this isn't a small squad, its perfectly feasible to a strong team for to Cardiff and the strongest possible team for the Saints game. But sending a pointlessly weakened team is just embarrassing IMO.

[jgriffin]

Agree with the 'pointlessly weakened'. We have to protect our assets however for the main event - to requalify for Europe should not rest on the ECC, should be the Prem.

[JP14]

I can see Taufua being on the bench not starting though.

[Scuttle]

To be honest I didn't take what GM said as an intent to send weak side to Cardiff. I thought he was saying he will blend the resting and playing based on the needs of the individuals concerned. Seems reasonable to me.

[LE18]

TPN is injured, he had an operation to his injured elbow, he is out for 4 weeks.
My view is we should put out our strongest team, exclude plastic players, it's easier to Qualify for Champions Cup through this comp than reaching the top six in the prem. Play them in this fixture, win and then see how we need to approach the remaining Euro rounds, dont miss out, a bird in the hand and all that.

[sam16111986]

I'm not against targeted resting of certain players for any game. But this isn't a small squad, its perfectly feasible to a strong team for to Cardiff and the strongest possible team for the Saints game. But sending a pointlessly weakened team is just embarrassing IMO.

If you don't weaken the team you are weakening it in a Prem game later in the season because there are limits on how many games EPS players can take part in. That's the choice. Rest now or rest later. We can still field something like;

Bateman, Kerr, Heyes
Spencer, Wells
Coghlan, Boladau, Reffell
White, Hardwick
Taute, Viljoen
Thompstone, Steward, Holmes

Clare, Gigena, Leatigaga, Jordan, Lewis, Simmons, Forsyth, Worth

Taufua has had some concussion issues so even if he's past the protocols another week off wouldn't be a bad thing. Lavanini we can't risk but Spencer could do with a little more game time.

[Tiglon]

I'm not at all worried about winning this competition to qualify for the Champions Cup - if we can't get to 6th in the league then we won't be strong enough to compete in the Champions Cup next season and it will just be an embarrassing morale drainer.

"Weak team" vs "strong team" is a very black and white way of looking like it. Of course we shouldn't send a development team and ship 80 points, but neither should we put out the best players we have regardless of the risk or their condition/fitness. Pragmatism says there is a middle ground, where we put out a good team that should be able to compete, but neither this game or this competition are priorities for the season so rest a few players who might benefit from a break or might be thought of as particularly at risk on the pitch (or might be particularly important or hard to replace for our bigger matches to come). As others have pointed out, there is also ample opportunity to rest players in the Calvisano matches.

[Cardiff Tig]

I understand that. But you can rest half the England players now and half at a later date for instance. Or load the bench so that we have some heavy guns to bring on if necessary.

The Challenge Cup is still a full blown European competition. I know its a lower standard than the Champions Cup but I don't see how that is a valid argument when we're not good enough to qualify for the top tournament in the first place.

If we miss out on the top 6 because we have to rest players at a later date then it still means the coaches aren't up to scratch. I would put money on most other premiership coached getting top 6 with the current squad, even without the England players for some games.

I'll wait and see what the team sheet is like though, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised!

[Tiglon]

I understand that. But you can rest half the England players now and half at a later date for instance. Or load the bench so that we have some heavy guns to bring on if necessary.

The Challenge Cup is still a full blown European competition. I know its a lower standard than the Champions Cup but I don't see how that is a valid argument when we're not good enough to qualify for the top tournament in the first place.

If we miss out on the top 6 because we have to rest players at a later date then it still means the coaches aren't up to scratch. I would put money on most other premiership coached getting top 6 with the current squad, even without the England players for some games.

I'll wait and see what the team sheet is like though, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised!

Agreed. If May isn't 100% ready he gets rested, maybe a couple of Ford/Youngs/Manu as well depending on how they're doing. Genge on the other hand could probably do with getting a game under his belt, regardless of opponent or competition.

Like you say, we can't afford to be resting our best players in the league any more than is absolutely necessary. If the choice is between resting a player against Cardiff or a Premiership game later in the season, you'd choose Cardiff every time. That said, there are only 18 league games remaining, so all our England players could play in every one (excluding during 6 nations if selected, of course) and not go over the limit.