Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

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johnthegriff
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by johnthegriff » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:15 pm

I believe that at the time of the previous " investigation " a number of clubs had exploited ambiguities in the cap regulations and whilst these did not produce significant overspend they could be construed as breaches. Two clubs in private ownership did breach the cap by a considerable amount however it was thought that if the maximum punishments were handed out that would not be good for rugby and might hinder future investment. A large increase in the cap was agreed at that time which meant that it would not be necessary to exceed the cap (with tightened regulations) in order to compete with French wages. Time has moved on and wage inflation has taken place. The public information is that Saracens may have found a way of making their club more attractive by paying within the cap but enabling selected employees to enter into private business partnerships with an individual who happens to be the owner of Saracens but these businesses do not involve Saracens. I would imagine the investigation has first of all to determine if these arrangements are actually in breach of the cap and also if so whether or not punishing action could be enforced within the law of the land.

Traveller
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Traveller » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:20 pm

BigDan50 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:11 am
ay2oh, yes I have verbal evidence from a member of the body investigating the cap that a number of clubs were in breach of the cap including Tigers.
is there any concrete evidence out there that saracens broke the cap, if so I think it would be published by now so we must call them innocent until proven guilty.
I will not keep my opinions to myself, isn't that the point of a forum to enable fans to discuss.
My 10p worth. I agree with your assessment of what happened in 2012. Saracens and Bath were the focus of the discussions and it was Craig who called the other clubs bluff i.e. either shut up and take the money from the new tv deal or threaten us and we will will go to law to blow the salary cap completely. Harlequins were indignant - but post Bloodgate - they didn't want to take it any further. Three / four other clubs - one of which was Tigers had their own reasons for siding with Craig.

However that was 2012. And at the risk of being repetitive - it was the organisers of the Prem that announced the investigation into Saracens in March. This is not gossip, innuendo from biased supporters. This is an investigation launched by the very people who have responsibility for the governance oversight of the competition. It started in March 2019. It is now mid July. Unless a thorough investigation takes place, and the results are made public, the smell won't go away and the credibility of the competition will be undermined.

My sincere hope would be that a serious investigation is completed and that Saracens are found to be compliant. They are after all a brilliant team, and it would send a message to other clubs that you can achieve excellence and operate within the competition rules.

johnthegriff
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by johnthegriff » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:52 pm

I thought the previous investigation was more recent than 2012. The cap is a problem for team that supply international players to England as they need to pay higher standard back up in the positions affected, I know they get an allowance but it is not for the full amount and the business has to find the money, the shortfall impacts throughout the team, although apparently not at Saracens. My impression at he time of of the previous investigation was that some clubs including Tigers respected the agreed privacy of the discussions whilst others led by Wasps who had actually been skint the previous season and unable to breach the cap took a moral high ground and went public.
Whatever the results of the current enquiry it must be concluded soon and the details made public.

chewbacca
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by chewbacca » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:51 pm

All a bit of a conundrum. Is it probable that Premiership Rugby does not have the financial resources of a very wealthy owner in order to enter into litigation? If this is the case then effectively the cap is unenforceable for all clubs and hence pointless.
I'm not cynical just experienced

Dangerous4
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Dangerous4 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:42 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:03 pm
Dangerous4 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:53 pm
The situation at Saracens needs to be clarified asap. imo. Reasons and explanations should be given, whichever way the dice falls, and should be thoroughly explained. The salary cap seems to have brought more problems than it has resolved.
Maybe their end goal is to have the cap done away with?
It could well be, Scott.

Dangerous4
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Dangerous4 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:43 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:03 pm
Dangerous4 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:53 pm
The situation at Saracens needs to be clarified asap. imo. Reasons and explanations should be given, whichever way the dice falls, and should be thoroughly explained. The salary cap seems to have brought more problems than it has resolved.
Maybe their end goal is to have the cap done away with?
It could well be, Scott.

teds
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by teds » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:39 pm

Go on, I’ll say it. It’s in Sarries interest to keep the cap. Even if they are forced to stick to it.
As wealth goes Wray is more Boy George than Elton John.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rugby-ri ... money-men/

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Traveller » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:04 pm

Well beginning 22 July. 4 months. It must be one 'deep dive' by the forensic accountants.

BigDan50
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by BigDan50 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:34 pm

Maybe there is nothing to investigate, green eyed monsters on here when it comes to anything Saracens.

Dangerous4
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Dangerous4 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:12 pm

BigDan50 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:34 pm
Maybe there is nothing to investigate, green eyed monsters on here when it comes to anything Saracens.
Not so, imo. Smart operators who are flying a little too close to the wind.

Traveller
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Traveller » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:21 pm

Dangerous4 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:12 pm
BigDan50 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:34 pm
Maybe there is nothing to investigate, green eyed monsters on here when it comes to anything Saracens.
Not so, imo. Smart operators who are flying a little too close to the wind.
It's weird you should write as much. It is the Premiership Organisers, the people who have legal oversight for running the competition that announced an investigation into Saracens. It wasn't me or anyone else on the forum. I've said all along I think they are a fantastic team. Probably the best English club side I have ever seen.

If it was Tigers under investigation. I would want the thing to be done and dusted so that it was clear, that we were conducting ourselves properly / or not and amend our ways.

Oh - and that investigation was announced in early March and we are nearly at mid-August. That would be five months. Words like 'sweep' and 'carpet' come to mind

Traveller
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Traveller » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:21 pm

And another week goes by. 5 full months since the investigation was first announced by Premiership Rugby. You’d think Nigel Wray would be angry that it hasn’t been made clear to all and sundry that Saracens are squeaky clean.

And remember - it’s not me - it was those charged with oversight for the integrity of the competition who announced that they were going to investigate Saracens.

Carpet - Sweep

Traveller
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Traveller » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:10 am

Pinch, punch, well 2nd of the month.

Still no investigation published. First announced in March. Six months to look into the finances of a rugby club.

Carpet - Sweep.

Hot_Charlie
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Hot_Charlie » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:36 am

Traveller wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:10 am
Pinch, punch, well 2nd of the month.

Still no investigation published. First announced in March. Six months to look into the finances of a rugby club.

Carpet - Sweep.
I don’t think it is. Unfortunately this is a very difficult problem with potentially far reaching game-changing consequences depending on the outcome and any potential legal challenge.

The club being up for sale may help protect from some of those potential outcomes too.

JP14
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by JP14 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:03 pm

The news is very quiet on the western front regarding the sale, will it actually come off, god forbid does Brexit have anything to do with it?!
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

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