Referees

[Smudge]

He was OK for much of the game but 2 or 3 glaring mistakes spoilt his performance. Mind you, he was getting a lot of advice from the TJs and the wagon which had to have an effect. The whistle I felt most aggrieved about was the foul he gave against George for a high tackle. He had only to revue it to see it was nonsense.

He seems like a pleasant young man and has a decent rapport with the players so we can but hope he improves and makes less mistakes because he is going to be on the scene for a long while to come.

[LE18]

So, throw out all these so called poor refs and what are we left with? Worse ones or non at all, what then, no ref, no game. Think players are more at fault than refs, we were very poor, Sale were no better, Warriors were miles better than us!

Better refs. Agreed about the players but a better ref leads to a better match
quote

But where are these better refs, according to posters on here there are only approx 4 in the world, and they cannot cover all our matches?

[Mark62]

Seems I’m in the minority fair enough but I accept others opinions.

The one thing about his 3 or 4 bad decisions was that they were all fairly big, including Fords high tackle, Thompson turnover and Scrumage penalty against Bateman.
Also no mention of Khalamafoni being tackled in the air when he jumped to take Fords pass which I have seen penalised on numerous occasions

[ourla]

Nothing will change my mind that he should not be reffing at that level

Then I fear you are in for many disappointment days watching matches for years to come because i believe Maxwell Keys is here to stay.

Wayne Barnes was hated at one point you know.

[BFG]

Seems I’m in the minority fair enough but I accept others opinions.

The one thing about his 3 or 4 bad decisions was that they were all fairly big, including Fords high tackle, Thompson turnover and Scrumage penalty against Bateman.
Also no mention of Khalamafoni being tackled in the air when he jumped to take Fords pass which I have seen penalised on numerous occasions

I don't think that you are in a minority but more respecting the referee takes precedence.
There is a lack of clarity for refs to work from in my opinion!
Still I bet you didn't expect to be asked if you were a stalker!
I must confess that when I first heard the name Maxwell Keys I thought it was a coffee brand from Florida!

[Mark62]

Nothing will change my mind that he should not be reffing at that level

Then I fear you are in for many disappointment days watching matches for years to come because i believe Maxwell Keys is here to stay.

Wayne Barnes was hated at one point you know.

Fair point but as previously mentioned Maxwell Keyes has not changed for 10 years plus. Don’t believe ask anyone who saw in ref in what was Nat Midlands 3

[Mark62]

Seems I’m in the minority fair enough but I accept others opinions.

The one thing about his 3 or 4 bad decisions was that they were all fairly big, including Fords high tackle, Thompson turnover and Scrumage penalty against Bateman.
Also no mention of Khalamafoni being tackled in the air when he jumped to take Fords pass which I have seen penalised on numerous occasions

I don't think that you are in a minority but more respecting the referee takes precedence.
There is a lack of clarity for refs to work from in my opinion!
Still I bet you didn't expect to be asked if you were a stalker!
I must confess that when I first heard the name Maxwell Keys I thought it was a coffee brand from Florida!

Like

[ourla]

The fact that you feel empathy is being matey shows just how out of touch you are.

Definition of empathy - "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another". I didn't see RMK having a problem with this. He was authorative or dictatorial. He explained his decisions in a direct but friendly way.

The fact is the players want clear and concise instructions without feeling they are being addressed from the headmasters study.

As above I don't see RMK as sounding like an headmaster.

As for me being a stalker I have been involved in local Leicestershire rugby since the early 80s so have seen many refs on a number of occasions including Maxwell Keyes.

He clearly gets up your nose. I'm just not sure why. I'm not sure your background or me is of relevance.

[ourla]

Nothing will change my mind that he should not be reffing at that level

Then I fear you are in for many disappointment days watching matches for years to come because i believe Maxwell Keys is here to stay.

Wayne Barnes was hated at one point you know.

Fair point but as previously mentioned Maxwell Keyes has not changed for 10 years plus. Don’t believe ask anyone who saw in ref in what was Nat Midlands 3

Are you saying Wayne Barnes has markedly changed?

Why should Maxwell Keys change? He's 28yo and refereeing in the top English league every week.

[Mark62]

Then I fear you are in for many disappointment days watching matches for years to come because i believe Maxwell Keys is here to stay.

Wayne Barnes was hated at one point you know.

Fair point but as previously mentioned Maxwell Keyes has not changed for 10 years plus. Don’t believe ask anyone who saw in ref in what was Nat Midlands 3

Are you saying Wayne Barnes has markedly changed?

Why should Maxwell Keys change? He's 28yo and refereeing in the top English league every week.

Ourla we obviously have a difference of opinion and I’m bored of batting this back and forward so you enjoy Maxwell Keyes officiating and unless I see otherwise I will continue to see him as sub standard

[longlivethecrumbie]

Then I fear you are in for many disappointment days watching matches for years to come because i believe Maxwell Keys is here to stay.

Wayne Barnes was hated at one point you know.

Fair point but as previously mentioned Maxwell Keyes has not changed for 10 years plus. Don’t believe ask anyone who saw in ref in what was Nat Midlands 3

Are you saying Wayne Barnes has markedly changed?

Why should Maxwell Keys change? He's 28yo and refereeing in the top English league every week.

I remember a number of games between us and Saints that Mr Barnes officiated and the only thing both sets of fans on the terrace could agree on was that Sir was dire and we'd rather have anyone other than him officiating. Roll on 7-8 years and the previously much maligned Mr Barnes is the one ref that we all want to ref our games.

Has he changed? Yes, I think so. His rapport with the players is clear and he explains his decisions well and in a non-confrontational manner. But, the main thing is that the players know what they will get from him - his consistency of decision making and especially the big decisions has improved immeasurably. I, for one, will be sad to see Mr Barnes hang up his whistle at the end of the season.

As for the others - Pearce, Maxwell-Keyes et al can only improve and I hope that they improve in the same way that Barnes did and that'll only come with experience.

[Mark62]

Totally agree with the last part of the previous post about improvement and I would hope to see improvement from them all.
I suppose the point I was trying to make, I really didn’t want a debate on Maxwell Keyes, was that the 2 ex players I meant in my original post, Dickson and Ridley seem to be improving a lot quicker than others.

Maybe the answer is to try and recruit players as they retire. As they get towards the end of their career if interested get them qualified and then progressed through the ranks.
An example would be someone like wigglesworth who must be nearing the end of his career and has a wealth of knowledge to call on

[DingDong]

Ex players don't automatically make good refs, nor do they necessarily make good coaches. Why do you think ex players don't take up the whistle? the pool of ex players (academy, development and senior) is vast, the RFU have been attempting to recruit for years to little or no avail. The reason probably is because reffing is significantly more stressful than playing, it requires a lot deeper and broader understanding than just playing the game, and it requires a whole raft of managing skills that most rugby players don't use during their career.

Dickson makes the same (and more) mistakes as Maxwell-Keyes, but because he is an ex player he is less criticised, so a bit of a false economy there regarding Dicksons reputation as a ref. To say Maxwell-Keyes hasn't improved in 10 years is utterly ridiculous and unfortunately damages your credibility in this debate. This is because at that level the stringent coaching, assessments, grading committees, mentoring and the ever more complex laws force refs to improve, so therefore if they don't keep the required standard they are simply down graded as there's too much at risk.

[Mark62]

Ex players don't automatically make good refs, nor do they necessarily make good coaches. Why do you think ex players don't take up the whistle? the pool of ex players (academy, development and senior) is vast, the RFU have been attempting to recruit for years to little or no avail. The reason probably is because reffing is significantly more stressful than playing, it requires a lot deeper and broader understanding than just playing the game, and it requires a whole raft of managing skills that most rugby players don't use during their career.

Dickson makes the same (and more) mistakes as Maxwell-Keyes, but because he is an ex player he is less criticised, so a bit of a false economy there regarding Dicksons reputation as a ref. To say Maxwell-Keyes hasn't improved in 10 years is utterly ridiculous and unfortunately damages your credibility in this debate. This is because at that level the stringent coaching, assessments, grading committees, mentoring and the ever more complex laws force refs to improve, so therefore if they don't keep the required standard they are simply down graded as there's too much at risk.

Imho Maxwell Keyes has not improved anywhere near enough to move up 4 levels. Fair point to say that he hasn’t improved is not correct but what I am saying is what I’ve seen with my own eyes over that period.
Again with Dickson imho he controls a game a lot better than a number of other more experienced refs.
Not sure why any of this damages my credibility they are my opinions.
As to the vast pool of players you are correct but therefore there must be some that are interested in taking up the whistle, a career in which if you reach the top can lead to world wide travel and a decent salary.
Surely it damages your credibility to suggest no one would be interested, there only needs to be half a dozen to make an interest.
One of the biggest issues is that a lot of these younger refs have never played the game and their understanding comes from books and coaching videos.
Again for clarity these are my opinions.

[voice of the crumbie]

Talking of ex players who become referees one of the best I've seen (although I admit only on the TV) is Glenn Jackson the ex Sarries fly half.