Tigers values

[ellis9]

Carley should have carded Vunipola at the penalty try stage and the invasive positioning of the touch judge should have removed May's 2nd yellow from the equation. That aside - and I hate myself for saying it - Carley actually reffed pretty well. From my vantage point in the Crumbie, I thought he was a lot worse than sober reflection watching the replay suggested.

Indeed. I think we were unlucky with a couple of 50:50 calls (ie other referees may have called them the other way) and the George try, and maybe the scrum farce/penalty try could have been given greater clarity, but everything else was pretty much spot on.

Apart from the forward passes that lead to tries, Saracens being offside a number of times and not rolling away once they'd made the tackle.

[voice of the crumbie]

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Carley should have carded Vunipola at the penalty try stage and the invasive positioning of the touch judge should have removed May's 2nd yellow from the equation. That aside - and I hate myself for saying it - Carley actually reffed pretty well. From my vantage point in the Crumbie, I thought he was a lot worse than sober reflection watching the replay suggested.

Indeed. I think we were unlucky with a couple of 50:50 calls (ie other referees may have called them the other way) and the George try, and maybe the scrum farce/penalty try could have been given greater clarity, but everything else was pretty much spot on.

Apart from the forward passes that lead to tries, Saracens being offside a number of times and not rolling away once they'd made the tackle.

One of the problems is that 99% of referees have a robotic approach to applying directives on things like deliberate
knock-ons. This is even with "help" from the TMO (some of whom are next to useless). It has become almost automatic that any attempt to reach for a ball in the 22 metre zone that results in anything other than the ball being caught by the player attempting to intercept is deemed a deliberate knock-on and automatic yellow card. In effect they are refereeing the outcome rather than the intention. A deliberate slap down is easily identifiable with the review technology available these days and should be punished in accordance with the rules.

However there are genuine instances when a player's reflex reaction gets the better of them and they reach to catch the ball as it flies past. This is what I believe happened with May's 2nd offence on Sunday. The positioning of his hand, from what I could see, was more slanted upwards than downwards - the incident took place almost right in front of where I stand on the terrace. The replays shown at the time appeared to confirm this. However because of the robotic approach I alluded to above a 2nd yellow was awarded despite video evidence. In such instances it is within the referees discretion to decide that there was no deliberate action on the part of the player and award a simple knock-on with a scrum to the attacking team. The problem is, as I stated above, most referees take the easy way out and automatically award a deliberate knock-on and yellow card.

[TigerCam]

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Indeed. I think we were unlucky with a couple of 50:50 calls (ie other referees may have called them the other way) and the George try, and maybe the scrum farce/penalty try could have been given greater clarity, but everything else was pretty much spot on.

Apart from the forward passes that lead to tries, Saracens being offside a number of times and not rolling away once they'd made the tackle.

One of the problems is that 99% of referees have a robotic approach to applying directives on things like deliberate
knock-ons. This is even with "help" from the TMO (some of whom are next to useless). It has become almost automatic that any attempt to reach for a ball in the 22 metre zone that results in anything other than the ball being caught by the player attempting to intercept is deemed a deliberate knock-on and automatic yellow card. In effect they are refereeing the outcome rather than the intention. A deliberate slap down is easily identifiable with the review technology available these days and should be punished in accordance with the rules.

However there are genuine instances when a player's reflex reaction gets the better of them and they reach to catch the ball as it flies past. This is what I believe happened with May's 2nd offence on Sunday. The positioning of his hand, from what I could see, was more slanted upwards than downwards - the incident took place almost right in front of where I stand on the terrace. The replays shown at the time appeared to confirm this. However because of the robotic approach I alluded to above a 2nd yellow was awarded despite video evidence. In such instances it is within the referees discretion to decide that there was no deliberate action on the part of the player and award a simple knock-on with a scrum to the attacking team. The problem is, as I stated above, most referees take the easy way out and automatically award a deliberate knock-on and yellow card.

I agree and interpretation is the key. The trouble is that the ball went forwards and then downwards on both occasions. On the first, had JM not made contact with the ball then as Maitland was in front, the ball would have gone to touch? JM touched the ball that resulted it going forwards and downwards so by definition a yellow but as it was IMO not a deliberate KO, a scrum and definitely no penalty try. In the second, Thomstone was between the Rhodes pass and Maitland so again no direct scoring opportunity. As a result of the KO but again by definition no direct scoring opportunity therefore no yellow and therefore no red. Unfortunately, we have all seen more deliberate KOs that have not been acted upon, hence why the interpretation is key? I believe on both occasions had JM got to the ball and it went upwards then the Tigers could have had 14 points? I agree that there was IMO and by interpretation, no deliberate attempt to stop the play by knocking on, only the attempt to intercept on both occasions. Tough on JM and the Tigers!

[Tiglon]

On the appointment of MOC - it baffles me that there was a players committee to help decide. In what other organisation would employees get to help choose their leader? Madness.

On the referee - it seemed like he made a few strange calls, the delayed yellow for Mako being one. A very odd scrum penalty for Sarries when they were quickly going backwards was another - but sometimes these are difficult to work out when in the ground, and make more sense with the aid of replays, commentary and ref mic on TV. The Jonny May red feels harsh, but it was correct - he needs to be able to understand that he has no chance of making an interception and withdraw his hand accordingly. You can't just wave at every pass and hope for the best, it won't end well. How often do you see a player go for an interception with one hand and manage to catch it? Exactly, so why do it?

The fact is, the referee didn't lose us the game, our handling skills did.

[Hot_Charlie]

Indeed. I think we were unlucky with a couple of 50:50 calls (ie other referees may have called them the other way) and the George try, and maybe the scrum farce/penalty try could have been given greater clarity, but everything else was pretty much spot on.

Apart from the forward passes that lead to tries, Saracens being offside a number of times and not rolling away once they'd made the tackle.

Yeah, but that's "normal" these days. "Let the game flow".

[BFG]

Anyone else notice one of the 9's constantly shouting in the refs ear and waving his arms for the entire crowd to see during the scrums on last nights televised match between Bath and Wasps?
A poor example to set for any fool to follow in my opinion!
How on earth is a ref supposed to concentrate with some fool shouting in his ear!
I would've enjoyed seeing the player instantly red carded!
He was asked to stop it and yet the very next scrum the player did it again!
It's high time that some respect was regained and it starts on the pitch in my opinion!

[strawclearer]

Anyone else notice one of the 9's constantly shouting in the refs ear and waving his arms for the entire crowd to see during the scrums on last nights televised match between Bath and Wasps?
A poor example to set for any fool to follow in my opinion!
How on earth is a ref supposed to concentrate with some fool shouting in his ear!
I would've enjoyed seeing the player instantly red carded!
He was asked to stop it and yet the very next scrum the player did it again!
It's high time that some respect was regained and it starts on the pitch in my opinion!

It's entirely with the ref. Please say the following in a forceful Welsh accent and you'll see what I mean!

"I'm the referee, not you. If you want to flap your arms at me or wave pretend cards or try to do my job, go and be a spectator - I can help you with that. If you want a tv replay, there's a telly in the bar. Do I make myself clear?"

[LE18]

Don't know if this was brought to refs attention but twice today ref told both SHs to stop waving their arms.

[strawclearer]

Don't know if this was brought to refs attention but twice today ref told both SHs to stop waving their arms.

I should point out that I made the quote up.....but it's exactly what 'you-know-who' might say!

[LE18]

I think JPD said today, stop waving your arms, whilst i'm watching you I cannot watch whats going on in the front row. Or words to that effect, he did it to both scrum halves.

[mol2]

Change? Where? Remploying an old coach?

Correct. Tried tested and failed.

Left, had a go with Ireland’s top team and failed there too.

Ok he may not have built this side but he had a good go at Leinster where his results earned him the chop.


What do we expect when we seem to have forgotten the importance of the forwards. How long since we beat a top side at full strength?
The home defeat to Worcester was dreadful. Deprived of our international props we offered nothing. Having flash backs is pointless unless your forwards can get the ball and give them front foot ball to exploit. The props returned so at least we win our scrums but behind that we are underpowered and far too easily stopped in the loose.

[voice of the crumbie]

I remember one referee (can't recall exactly who) saying very pointedly to our very own Martin Johnson something like "I haven't come here today to play lock and you haven't come to referee". He then invited him to get on with the game.

[Big Dai]

Don't know if this was brought to refs attention but twice today ref told both SHs to stop waving their arms.

I should point out that I made the quote up.....but it's exactly what 'you-know-who' might say!

Pretty good shout SC. You missed a reference to rugby not being wendyball, but not bad! 9/10!

[fleabane]

Not quite sure where this thread is heading. Not about « Tigers values » anymore!