Are Tigers days as one of rugby's giants coming to an end?

[BFG]

I think one of the key problems has been that our model of bringing players in has generally been to bring in someone who fits into one of two categories - someone who we feel is underrated or under the radar and we feel we can get them playing better than expected, or a player who is past their prime and looking for a payday. The latter category is the main failing and has resulted in us repeatedly spending a whack of money and getting nothing for it - see Pietersen, JdV, Kronfeld, Thorn as examples of a lot of cash for not a lot of time on the pitch. Toomua is a departure from that, and it's genuine bad luck that he's been injured. Getting players in their prime who can deliver 20 games a season is a must for the highest paid guys in the squad.

Pietersen at the beginning of the season was worth his weight in gold.

Kronfeld gave everything for the shirt - it was the combination of him and Back that made us the success we were in the early 2000s - everyone else was moving from a traiditon 6 & 7 to two 6.5s whereas Tigers played with two 7s and the opponents were never allowed the ball for very long

What they were in the past was better than anyone else, it was all relevant to the level of the opposition.
The game has moved on and so have the opposition.
Leicester are at a professional level but are not professional enough in approach, still they spend up to the cap which has and possibly always will be enough to maintain a certain level just as long as not too many below attain that ability.
The ones that have attained that ability have matched and overtaken already.
We are pinning our hopes on some magical style of rugby though that to be quite honest I've never ever seen played before at the top level and certainly not where the equality of a salary cap exists, I reckon I've got more chance of seeing Elvis riding a unicorn!

[ourla]

Excellent posts from mightymouse and tigercaspian - much in line with my thinking!

[BFG]

Excellent posts from mightymouse and tigercaspian - much in line with my thinking!

They are good posts that tell a story that I fully agree with but still don't take into account the fact that the set up of the team in reality is onto a loser!
In the real world with all other things being equal bigger blokes will knock smaller blokes over in a collision sport.

[biffer]

And I am simply NOT having that Thorn added little

When he played he was great, but he put a jersey on for fewer than half our AP games that season. Need more than that from our big money guys - that's my point.

[sapajo]

Still think the fundamental problem remains that Mauger wants to play the All Black complete game which requires high quality fast athletic highly skilled forwards. Mauger does not have the dosh to sign such forwards having blown a lot on the backs, so we are now stuck with a lightweight pack not good enough to play the Mauger way and under powered when it comes to playing the Tigers way. That I believe is our problem in a nutshell and unless money becomes available to sign some quality All Black type forwards we will not achieve the game that Mauger wants to play for even next season.

[Iain]

And I am simply NOT having that Thorn added little

When he played he was great, but he put a jersey on for fewer than half our AP games that season. Need more than that from our big money guys - that's my point.

He wasn't on big money. Cockers made a big point of saying so several times. Experienced back up who played an important part through the season and from whom our young forwards learned a lot.

[jgriffin]

Still think the fundamental problem remains that Mauger wants to play the All Black complete game which requires high quality fast athletic highly skilled forwards. Mauger does not have the dosh to sign such forwards having blown a lot on the backs, so we are now stuck with a lightweight pack not good enough to play the Mauger way and under powered when it comes to playing the Tigers way. That I believe is our problem in a nutshell and unless money becomes available to sign some quality All Black type forwards we will not achieve the game that Mauger wants to play for even next season.

And frankly, a type of game that requires the players, the situation, a certain class of opponent and a ref that lets them get away with blue murder. When that doesn't happen, they become far more ordinary (viz the Irish game).
We have taken on elements of a style that is not suited to the weekly grind of the AP and IMO will never be, totally.

[WiggoTiger]

Lets face it we have cycles where we win nothing and then win trophies and then win nothing.
Seen it for years, JP Cup wins then Bath dominate, wins 4 AP and 2 HC and then Wasps start to dominate, win AP trophies intermingled with one off clubs picking up trophies. At present Sarries are the best team Europe let alone England. They grind out wins, not always pretty but fight it out from minute 1 to minute 80+.

We will rise from the troublesome few months/years to be great yet again!
I agree we have the infrastructure off the field but need to utilise it more to generate better revenue....especially match day catering.

[mol2]

We may be in disarray and a return to glory may be some time away but the extinction of this breed of Tiger is being prematurely reported.

The salary cap has progressively hit us. (Not necessarily because others are exceeding it, but that remains a concern). This has meant that several clubs can now reach the spending limits so the emphasis to achieve success becomes more about coaching and strategy & how you spend the cap, how you use the players and where you use youngsters coming through the system. Others seem to be doing it better. Expecting your backs to do the crash ball work because the second and back row players are not dynamic enough is probably not sound. Having an array of superstar backs isn't going to make a difference if the forwards don't make gaps for them to exploit. Expecting tries to be conjured by individual magic from inside your own 22 doesn't work when your defence leaks like rusty bucket.

We need to make wide sweeping changes for the future in the longer term. These need to be off the field as much as on it.

In the short term we need to rescue this season!

[upandunder]

Keeping in mind that none of us knows all the facts and therefore to a large extent are speculating i would make the following observations;
If we are spending up to the cap and other clubs are also spending up to the cap then surely it is not about money. If we choose to balance the books and others to run a deficit then so what. Theoretically we all have the same pot to spend.
By definition it must be something else which causes us not to attract the right players to the squad. Is it coaching style/quality or lack of it (Cockers) or is it the DOR plus Cohen plus the Board who are failing to make the club attractive to talent we would like. What is putting them off?
As a previous post has intimated success is cyclical and we have experienced highs and lows before BUT we have always been able to attract quality players, players who can play with skill but also dog it out when needed. Remember Lotti. A brilliant attacking player but also fighter when needed. Julian (I DONT STEP BACKWARDS) White and more recently Tommy Waldron who we were careless enough to loose along with Salvi.
So why do we appear to be unable to attract players or to retain good players if it is not about money.
Just a thought!

[ellis9]

Lets face it we have cycles where we win nothing and then win trophies and then win nothing.
Seen it for years, JP Cup wins then Bath dominate, wins 4 AP and 2 HC and then Wasps start to dominate, win AP trophies intermingled with one off clubs picking up trophies. At present Sarries are the best team Europe let alone England. They grind out wins, not always pretty but fight it out from minute 1 to minute 80+.

We will rise from the troublesome few months/years to be great yet again!
I agree we have the infrastructure off the field but need to utilise it more to generate better revenue....especially match day catering.

I don't think better match day catering will make much difference! People that moan about it still use it and those of us that don't bother using it, still won't use it if we get the worlds best catering facilities.

[ourla]

Probably worth breaking it down.


On the field

No recognised No 8's
Kick chase - that is half of Saracens gameplan
Rolling maul - both in attack and defence
Ability to put away opportunities in the red zone

Our pack is a little underpowered but I see it largely as a No 8 issue. That was a big screw up and has been hurting us all season. The Croft saga has hurt us and should have been put to bed a while ago. Logo seems to me to have become another liability. Ayerza must be near to retirement and I'm wondering how much more Coley has got in the tank. I still believe in Youngs, Genge, McAffrey, Barrow, Slater, O'Connor, Williams and others so it's all buildable. We've got to become much more consistent and making sure this aspect of the team is rock solid. Forwards linking with backs and doing the special stuff comes on top of this.

Our backs have suffered and continue to suffer more through injuries. It's no coincidence that Sarries and Wasps have a couple of excellent penalty/conversion takers. Burns has improved but we need someone to support or back him up. Thompstone has been great, I think Brady has shown he's not a lame duck, Worth is a bright prospect. With the likes of JP, TV and Toomua back in the team there is some great fairy dust. We have to make the best of what we've got. We definitely need to improve our kick chase in both defence and attack. At times it just looks a mess.

Academy/Player dev is showing some green shoots but needs to keep improving.

I don't believe player recruitment is a major issue.


Off the field

Ground development, including the ex-Granby Halls, seems to be "on track" and is maintaining our status
Pitch is sorted
Training facilities need sorting
Non corporate poor match day experience is second rate and seem to not be a priority

I am not of the opinion our business model or our board are a busted flush

[jgriffin]

Blimey, excellent post Sir!

[BFG]

Blimey, excellent post Sir!

Didn't think much of it myself, especially the wondering how much Coley has got, only an idiot who has no idea what it takes to be a tight head at any level let alone in our current environment would spout that sort of rubbish!
The rest is just mildly stating the bleeding obvious!
I don't see much changing on hearing what AM has to say and on pitch affects everything off pitch.
It's the squad he built, what he didn't want was let go.
They'll keep plodding along, wasting large amounts of salary cap on players not worth it, sentimentally wishing that they were.
Oh his Dad was good, was he, I must've missed that as I recall he was just an amateur like the rest of us!
There will always be someone doing it better and perhaps a few more may also overtake us until the penny finally drops which could well be a very long time.

[L Smith]

Didn't think much of it myself, especially the wondering how much Coley has got, only an idiot who has no idea what it takes to be a tight head at any level let alone in our current environment would spout that sort of rubbish!
The rest is just mildly stating the bleeding obvious!

Unnecessary.