A bit of perspective

[tigerburnie]

Ours is financially sustainable, so there is less worry about the money drying up, but demonstrably less successful. Simply because buying success on a low budget won't get you success against teams with a similar model and a higher budget.

What are you proposing here exactly, we spend more than we are earning, so we can go over the salary cap and compete with Toulon? Or do we get rid of a lot of players so we can spend more on individuals? I am struggling to understand your point here......................

[tigerburnie]

anybody have any reason or rationale why Burke was given the boot?

Have you not read what Cockers said ? He cannot say more just now, we presume there may be some sort of contractural thing. We might guess he was asked to go, we don't know. He is saying nothing, so the gossip and wringing of hands is pretty futile just now. Sure the club has to make a statement at sometime, in the mean time we are now in a period of change in our coaching set up and we will have to see how this affects our on the field results. I for one will be watching closely to see what happens and if we are able to turn round what is turning into quite a dramtic set of circumstances. Patience is after all a virtue so we are told.

[voice of the crumbie]

I am going to wait and see because I cannot see into the future and I am not party to the Board's deliberations. I will be at the next AP games and will see for myself if there have been changes in attack. I have already seen changes in defence, and I am more than satisfied that most of our forward play is sound, especially set piece. I am also pleased that Ben has joined the Board, the Tigers tradition being renewed and strengthened.

This is what I mean. You are willing to wait and make a considered judgement rather than a knee-jerk reaction. There seems to be no patience or taking account of contributory factors. But then again it is only my opinion.

As far as a bit of perspective goes we should be noting the costs incurred by two of the teams who seem to be on the up at the moment, without outside money they would still be mediocrities as far as the English rugby is concerned
Tigers are trying to remain competitive, whilst developing the ground and balancing the books, a very difficult task
The current injury crisis is highlighting the difficulty of the task but a task that has on the whole been well done over the past few seasons, let us see how it all pans out over the next few seasons, I think Tigers have the right model, Toulon have shown that you can buy success but when the money stops, and it will at some stage, then the teams with sugar daddies but few supporters will be the ones crying.

I agree with all these comments.

For what it's worth I believe our current issues are a matter of expectation v confidence. We are the Tigers we expect to do well and win most of our games. That is the ethos of the club in the professional era. We have achieved some success over the past few seasons and have failed on other occasions - that's the nature of sport. This ethos puts pressure on the players which is no bad thing when the experienced players are there to steady the ship if things don't go according to plan during a game.

However we are missing 5 out of 6 British Lions plus numerous other players of international quality (Bai, Loamanu, Camacho, Matera, Slater, Deacon etc.) Yet the expectation of club and supporters remains unchanged. I will concede that we have had the likes of Ben Youngs, Scully, Salvi, Kitchener, Thorn, Ayerza (the latter 2 more recently - and what a difference they have made) available and I defy anyone who says that for the majority of the season so far these players have not performed well and demonstrated the sort of attitude we expect from Tigers players. Against Quins and Ulster we came out firing on all cylinders scored early and did enough to win. I admit the 2nd halves of those games could have been better. However you have to take into consideration that (and this is no disrespect to the players concerned) our bench selections (through necessity) have in the main been a step down in quality and experience and could not be the game changers or fresh impetus we would like to bring on. The players I mentioned above ( Bai, Loamanu etc) were brought in to provide that strength in depth. Injuries have thrown that strategy off course leaving us to rely on whoever is available. This means we have to persevere with players on the pitch who would normally expect to come off after 50 or 60 minutes having put in a hard shift. We have also had no rest or rotation for players like Salvi due to the injury crisis. All this takes its toll. We do not have an open cheque book and the injury dispensation rules do not allow us to dip into the market on the scale needed to cover problems of this magnitude - that's assuming that the right players are available to cover which is open to question. Against Scarlets we again came out looking for a fast start and when we didn't get it and then conceded a soft try I believe our confidence was shattered and this led to a succession of basic errors, poor execution etc. We had a number of opportunities to create scores and simply did not take them. How we sort that out is for those who manage the team and those who wear the shirt!

A number of posters say we are slow to adapt or take action when things are going wrong.

At the end of last season we recognised that our defence was underperforming so we hired a defence coach. That is hardly failure to adapt. It is noticing a problem and taking action to rectify it. On many threads recently posters have noticed an improvement in this aspect of our play.

It has also been noted by a number of posters that our set pieces are functioning well and that the forwards are performing. I would agree with this in the main. I am encouraged by the attitude and performances of Ghiraldini who has stepped up in the absence of Tom Youngs. Kitchener is leading the line out well. Ayerza and Salvi are as ever stand out performers. Balmain is improving. Add in Gibson and Thorn who have both made massive contributions and I believe even with the absentees we have we can hold our own against most teams.

That leaves the backs. Whilst there have been flashes of individual brilliance, the general concensus is that they have underperformed. The departure of Paul Burke shows the club has recognised this and is prepared to make changes. Hiw these will pan out remains to be seen.

In the meantime I would urge all supporters to get behind the team and give them time to come good. I expect our results to be "mixed" over the next month. This is something we will have to live with in pursuit of the bigger picture.

Let's get behind the team and make some noise!

[Brianf]

Voice of the Crumbie...the voice of reason.

[mol2]

When considering the injuries we need to have a little perspective.
Cole, Slater, Tuillagi and Youngs would be automatic starters although we have internationals filling in for Slater and Youngs.
Mulipola a certainty for the 23, as would Croft (not sure he would automatically oust Gibson) which is the same bench slot Matera would be contesting.
Camacho has never played for us so hardly appropriate to factor in his absence.
Where Deacon would fit into a match day squad these day I can't see.

[Tigerbeat]

When considering the injuries we need to have a little perspective.
Cole, Slater, Tuillagi and Youngs would be automatic starters although we have internationals filling in for Slater and Youngs.
Mulipola a certainty for the 23, as would Croft (not sure he would automatically oust Gibson) which is the same bench slot Matera would be contesting.
Camacho has never played for us so hardly appropriate to factor in his absence.
Where Deacon would fit into a match day squad these day I can't see.

You have missed Parling out!!

[4071]

Ours is financially sustainable, so there is less worry about the money drying up, but demonstrably less successful. Simply because buying success on a low budget won't get you success against teams with a similar model and a higher budget.

What are you proposing here exactly, we spend more than we are earning, so we can go over the salary cap and compete with Toulon? Or do we get rid of a lot of players so we can spend more on individuals? I am struggling to understand your point here......................

I'm suggesting that simply buying in a load of players every summer to fill gaps and create depth is a policy of trying to buy success, but one that will never succeed in Europe because of the bigger spending clubs in France who have the same plan but more money. And in the longer term it will fail domestically as well. Because you lose squad cohesion and identity, which in turn weakens the bonds between player and club, causing issues with player retention. This exacerbates the problem as you need to recruit again to cover the departures.

When you think that 21 of the current 47-man senior squad were not at the club 18 months ago, that's a pretty significant player churn and it's no wonder that they often look disorganised and unfamiliar with each other.


I've talked a lot about the academy and how the identity of a club is built from the bottom up. I believe that there is a lot more to a good academy and development structure than bringing the very occasional superstar through (like Croft, Cole, Youngs, Tuilagi and... er Ford...). I know there is a split on this forum between those who think that we need to develop from within and those who believe that we need to buy in the best players we can afford. The latter is the Toulon policy, but on a much smaller scale.

It frustrates me that there are so many who are happy to see Leicester be a poor man's Toulon and believe that anyone who has a different vision for Tigers is a doom-monger who should go support another club.

[tigerburnie]

I'm suggesting that simply buying in a load of players every summer to fill gaps and create depth is a policy of trying to buy success, but one that will never succeed in Europe because of the bigger spending clubs in France who have the same plan but more money. And in the longer term it will fail domestically as well. Because you lose squad cohesion and identity, which in turn weakens the bonds between player and club, causing issues with player retention. This exacerbates the problem as you need to recruit again to cover the departures.

When you think that 21 of the current 47-man senior squad were not at the club 18 months ago, that's a pretty significant player churn and it's no wonder that they often look disorganised and unfamiliar with each other.


I've talked a lot about the academy and how the identity of a club is built from the bottom up. I believe that there is a lot more to a good academy and development structure than bringing the very occasional superstar through (like Croft, Cole, Youngs, Tuilagi and... er Ford...). I know there is a split on this forum between those who think that we need to develop from within and those who believe that we need to buy in the best players we can afford. The latter is the Toulon policy, but on a much smaller scale.

It frustrates me that there are so many who are happy to see Leicester be a poor man's Toulon and believe that anyone who has a different vision for Tigers is a doom-monger who should go support another club.

Good explanation and I will not insult anyones intelligence by suggesting I know the answer. I'd love to see a proper "A" league so players can get game time and prove their place in the squad for the Premiership, but there are clubs who do not have enough players, so that won't happen. Hopefully over the next few weeks whilst the LV games are being played we will be able to gain a better understanding of who is where in their own development and who deserves a promotion.Lots suggest we use other players in the match day squad, but on what basis, how do we know if they are good enough in the Accademy?

[Tiger_in_Birmingham]

Isn't the removal of Paul Burke a knee jerk reaction, if he has been removed due to the current form then why doesn't the rest of the current regime face the same fate, he was of course part of many trophy winning set ups, anybody have any reason or rationale why Burke was given the boot?

Given how the lineout has been functioning I'd say that Blaze's job is safe.

Defence coach is new so he's got a bit longer before we can start baying for his blood

[RagingBull]

The fact that the defence is getting better and starting to have structure, The lineout is the best in the league and the scrums is improving suggests that Blaze and Blake are safe.

[4071]

Hopefully over the next few weeks whilst the LV games are being played we will be able to gain a better understanding of who is where in their own development and who deserves a promotion.Lots suggest we use other players in the match day squad, but on what basis, how do we know if they are good enough in the Accademy?

Too often the LV Cup is as far as Leicester players get... regardless of performances.

The obvious guy to look at is Alex Lewington, who played three seasons of LV Cup rugby with Tigers and really impressed at times (Quins fans got very interested in him when he played them in the SF). He only made his Premiership debut after he joined London Irish, and is now an established Premiership player, has scored 11 tries in 32 games for the club and picked up his second MOTM award of this season last weekend.

We never gave him a chance and signed players instead.

There have been plenty of players who have performed at LV or A level and not been given the opportunities to even try and show what they've got at Premiership level. A few years ago it was fair to point out that most of them ended up in the Championship, confirming that the coaches were right to ignore them. But increasingly - and predictably - they are making at higher levels and suggesting that the Leicester coaches might not always be right.

I would LOVE to see the LV used as a proper springboard from the Academy/A side into the full side. But I haven't seen it happening for years.

[jgriffin]

I think it's an exciting development.

[jgriffin]

I have mixed feelings about the Academy. I have a historical interest in that my eldest was invited to an evening at Tigers re Academy at the end of the 90s. He did not want to give up playing with his mates or become a pro rugby player (although it did end that season when the independent school blazers management of Colts dumped almost all the team that had won regional honours throught the age groups, and he was on Shoguns books while at uni, before they collapsed).

Since then I have been torn between the Academy idea and identifying players in the lower leagues who have matured a bit and have real talent (not always apparent at 16). Many of the also-rans at Academy level will have shone at 16 but sunk as they fail to progress - Will Hurrell is an example. They are too sealed off from real rugby IMHO.

So I see Tigers buying in from the Championship (and possibly below)not as despair but as a sensible alternative, and I find myself supremely unfussed by the Academy issue others seem supremely exercised by.

[4071]

So I see Tigers buying in from the Championship (and possibly below)not as despair but as a sensible alternative, and I find myself supremely unfussed by the Academy issue others seem supremely exercised by.

That's also a development route that I like clubs to take, rather than importing from outside England.

The likes of Richard Barrington, Tim Streather, Duncan Taylor (all Sarries), Rob Cook, Darren Dawidiuk (both Gloucester), Matt Hopper (Quins), Fergus Mulchrone (Irish), Guy Thompson (Wasps), etc have all developed in the lower leagues and been able to step up into first-team Premiership rugby with no transition. The same goes for most of the Exeter team who were promoted.

I've long said that there is a lot of untapped talent in the Championship that really needs to be looked at. One advantage of a salary cap is that these sources of talent are more keenly examined, rather than clubs simply splashing cash on a mid-level international player from the SH. That's actually one reason for the increase in the number of EQ players that clubs are fielding. I've been keeping stats for a few years and it used to be that anything over 60% EQ players fielded in a season was a decent return, but this season all but one of the Premiership club has fielded more than 60% EQ players. And that one club is still on 57.8%, when a couple of years ago there were clubs below 50% EQ.


I'd rather we had gone for Cobden than Roberts if we were looking in the Championship for a centre, though...

[simoscribbler]

I have mixed feelings about the Academy.....

So I see Tigers buying in from the Championship (and possibly below)not as despair but as a sensible alternative, and I find myself supremely unfussed by the Academy issue others seem supremely exercised by.

Really interesting perspective. I suppose one of the reasons that I'm a fan of a properly functioning and integrated Academy is because I see the club as part of the community, and that works both ways - it would be good for us all to see more lads who grew up watching the team from the stands in the matchday squad. But I do agree that late developers do need to be captured - Launchbury being a fantastic example - and that the Championship should be a happy hunting ground too.

I also want to see more younger players in the squad - and not (Thorn excepted) so many lads coming in with lots of miles on the clock, and often with an existing injury record. I do think recruiting more in the 20-22 range would help with our perennial injury problems. The conservatism that's driven by our recent success and (I suspect) by various folks in management is part of the problem, I believe. Personally, I'd like to see a lad like Harry Thacker getting a proper go in the big games while OTY is away. If not this year, then when?

Also totally agree with the earlier comments about not over-borrowing for instant success, and not because I'm a shareholder! I didn't really buy RC's comments about the Tigers being 'a working class club' and about him taking the blame (because it seems he hasn't - not that I know enough about the game to suggest that he or anyone else should leave), but I do hope that we can stay different from the big-money boys. And for me an Academy is just part of that, I suppose.