A Question To The Anti-Cockers Brigade

[h's dad]

Burnie wrote;-

How do you know that the Barf game was a watershed of the negative variety you propose, that is purely imagination on your part.

Because I go to most of the games. Because I sit with a bunch of lads I've known
since I was a player.
Because I have stayed closely involved with the club for donkeys years.
Above all,I talk to people!!

I have never said you can't be a supporter sitting up in Invercockieleekie but if
all the information you get to base your opinions on is gleaned from the media it's
no wonder you come out with the same old mantra, "Tigers can do no wrong" etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if you still believe in Santa Clause.

As for the Baaarth game, I wasn't able to go this year due to family stuff.
Watching it on the box was almost as painful.
I know my mates that did go found it a very galling experience and they have
talked of nothing else since.
At the not-nots game there was also a whole load of negativity where we sit.
But don't worry, if you think everything's alright that's OK by me.

(It's your Mum and Dad!)

Quite a lot of words to not answer the question. I would imagine very few of us welcome the Bath result and most of us would agree that improvements can be made but frankly it's an aberration rather than a watershed.

[tigerburnie]

So it's an opinion then. no facts, just supposition. You'll forgive me if I don't swallow that, when the Board act, then I accept the fact. If current players were to leave in droves, as I doubt any current players would say anything in public, then I will see evidence. No recent players that are still playing have said a word against us, indeed the captain of our opponents last week said not that long ago that the Tigers model was the one to copy. You gossip with your old mates and remember the smell of dubbin, we'll stick with the reality of life, you ain't going to win every game you play and there will be some we will win in proper ugly style, just like we always have. Tigers were the club who for decades were known for up the jumper 10 man rugby big scrums and rolling mauls. Now we are more balanced and frequently are at or near the top of the try scoring charts(and that bloke penalty doesn't score them all these days either)Never liked Champagne, over rated, so I wouldn't want it associated with our style of rugby. If anything I'd prefer us like a Malt Whisky from Islay, hot, fiery, smokin' and grabs you by the throat.(Bit like me really )

[jgriffin]

Tigers have had issues. One of the main causes left to coach Leinster. MOC had his favourites down Oval Park, he was a huge influence over RC apparently, and to be honest,change has been slow BUT the choice of Williams over Flood at the end of last season showed that RC rewarded the person in form. Likewise De Chaves is doing himself no end of good, in harness with Kitchener and I don't expect good form to be easily discarded.
I will reserve opinion until April.

[G.K]

The problem with doing that is that it will be too late for this season.

[h's dad]

The problem with doing that is that it will be too late for this season.

You shouldn't have to be Honest Abe to appreciate the folly of changing horses midstream.

[ourla]

The problem with doing that is that it will be too late for this season.

So just to be clear, you are advocating we change our DoR and probably with it his team of coaches, now!? Because we don't want to leave it too late....

[G.K]

The problem with doing that is that it will be too late for this season.

So just to be clear, you are advocating we change our DoR and probably with it his team of coaches, now!? Because we don't want to leave it too late....

No I am not advocating that (at the moment). I was responding JG's comment about reserving opinion until April.

However as this is now the third consecutive season that we have made a poor start and again have so many injuries so early in the season I do start to feel that there is something systematically wrong with the recruitment, conditioning and coaching at Welford Road.

Tigers now contain so many players from so many different countries (I believe 10 different countries in the current squad?) that it no longer feels like the Tigers of previous years, where we had a core of English players that formed the backbone of the team with a relative few overseas players. It can't be easy trying to get so many from different backgrounds to gel?

With one or two exceptions the recruitment policy appears to me to be find some journeymen that don't cost too much from wherever we can find them (Italy is the flavour this year). Also players are no longer 'breaking through' from the academy as they used to be.

As for the coaching - whenever I watch Tigers this season they appear to lack the same skill levels of the other top teams and the game plan is so predictable I pretty much know what's going to happen at each phase when Tigers have the ball (and thus so do the opposition). If our forwards can't dominate as they used to (and they can't) and in the absence of a human cannonball such as Manu we don't seem to have much else to be able to beat the top teams, either in the AP or in Europe.

I know the last two years we've turned it around but last year we didn't reach HQ for the first time and haven't made it past the quarters of the HC for some years. I hope I'm wrong but with the squad we have I think we'll struggle to improve on that this season. I have a lot of respect for RC and what he's achieved but what concerns me is that the longer it goes the worse Tigers appear to get.

At the risk of opening up old wounds I'd also like to remind everyone that Marcel Loffreda came in mid-season and got us to two finals that year. Sure we lost them both but that's more than we achieved last year. He then got fired.

[ourla]

Great post G.K with some good questions.

[tigerburnie]

Great post G.K with some good questions.

I agree(here it comes)but, with the situation we had where we had 8 players in the England team and still had to field a side and play league games on the same weekends, it is inevitable that "foreign" players will be called upon. Every team has this situation and not only in rugby, if we were to follow footballs lead on not playing league games during international periods, then the need for overseas players could diminish. Rugby still plays league games in the Premiership during the World Cup, let alone "friendlies" in the Autumn, apart from which I really would not like to see the end of overseas players in a Tigers shirt, many have brought more to the club than just their performances on the field.

[kend]

However as this is now the third consecutive season that we have made a poor start and again have so many injuries so early in the season I do start to feel that there is something systematically wrong with the recruitment, conditioning and coaching at Welford Road.

At the risk of rehashing prior points, where is the evidence of commonality over the three seasons other than being a side which contains a significant number of internationals and playing a collision sport? A significant number of the injured contingent were hurt with their international teams (even Parling's initial concussion occurred with England). There is little the conditioning coaches can do about an AC or ankle ligament injury. I think there is a misconception about S&C coaching. In most professional clubs (and some senior amateur ones) the coaches will have a BSc in their discipline, they really do know what they are doing.

It can't be easy trying to get so many from different backgrounds to gel?

Tigers have successfully integrated international players before and these blokes are professionals. The issue with 'gelling'is more likely to be they won't have played with a first choice XV or with a consistent set of playing patterns due to injury cover.

I pretty much know what's going to happen at each phase when Tigers have the ball

But from a position in the stands, that is pretty well true of any side; when Quins concertina around the ball carrier you know they are going to offload their way from the point of contact (until Marler drops the ball!) Or that Sarries will attack any weakly supported attacking ruck and try to turnover and flood through.

If you have centres as good as Allen and Manu, why wouldn't you base your attack on them? The line speed of modern defences is so good that the opportunity to improvise your way through is very limited, as that needs space that just isn't there. Even last season Tigers scored more than Quins or Bath, so it isn't particularly broken. What is it you expect to see? I'd add that Tigers have added more unpredictable players in Goneva and Burns. We just need to see them playing in a full strength side!

[MrPartridge]

Leicester Tigers director of rugby, Richard Cockerill has defiantly told doubters that he is “going nowhere”

Sorry I've been away so a bit late back on this one… I presume this is an accurate quote and there isn't a prefix of "Like the current team I'm" to add in.

To be fair to RC I quite like the bloke and he has a decent record. Equally a few here have made some good points and I do wonder if the game plan is progressive enough in 2014.

Will be interesting to see where we are by Christmas, but there is a distinct possibility we might not win a game this October and this thread will be a fascinating read if we get to that point…!

Come on Tigers, give us something to cheer at Gloucester!

[jgriffin]

I agree with KenD on this one, which is the reasoning behind my 'wait till April' comment. I have no crystal ball or insight into the chaos that is currently Tigers; I can only expect the coaches to do their best with such a difficult and fluid situation, and my criticisms will be largely to do with perverse selections when form dictates otherwise.

[fleabane]

4 players injured on international duty.
Out of 9 new signings, 4 were injured when signed. We could not have afforded them if fully fit.
4 injured in training.
The rest injured playing, or just wear and tear, some long term.

There is also the likelihood that we do not force players back to play until they are properly fit, unlike many other clubs.

Simon Cohen is asking serious questions about why so manyearly season injuries in successive seasons. We wait to hear what will change!

[tigerburnie]

To be fair to RC I quite like the bloke and he has a decent record. Equally a few here have made some good points and I do wonder if the game plan is progressive enough in 2014.

How do we know if the plan is progressive enough for 2014, we have only played 4 games and as of yet have not fielded a first team.

[TigerCam]

Great post G.K with some good questions.

Agreed, just the way I see too GK. Losing ML was IMO a lost opportunity, he was never given the chance he rightly deserved. You only have to look down the road to see how a team can be turned around and developed into a side that has a Plan A and can conjour another plan on the field when Plan A goes down the swanny. I really do hope/expect the Tigers to perform at the shed on Saturday, however I fear that the Glaws forwards will have parity and their backs will be too quick for the current Tigers defence?