Citing for Owen Williams

[h's dad]

If Owen says he did it I am inclined to believe him rather than doubt his honesty. Ignoring the monocular who think he should be acquitted despite the guilty plea and the ill-informed who think a knuckle in the eye is trivial we are left with those who think his sentence severe for an accidental infringement and those who think it was fairly light as the ban includes a number of non-competitive (as far as there are any) games. Perhaps this suggests that the sentence is about right.

[Bill W (2)]

Perhaps this suggests that the sentence is about right.

According to the letter of the rule book the sentence was almost certainly correct.

However, there is something wrong with the rule book where a full blooded punch to the face (which includes the eye area) attracts only a one week ban .......

[h's dad]

Perhaps this suggests that the sentence is about right.

According to the letter of the rule book the sentence was almost certainly correct.

However, there is something wrong with the rule book where a full blooded punch to the face (which includes the eye area) attracts only a one week ban .......

It does seem somewhat light. Possibly Tom Youngs' comments contributed to the leniency?

[Tigerref]

On the former I feel he was hard done by but I'm willing to accept that others disagree (not that I'm wrong, of course ): on the second the whole system stinks - as there appears to be no real application of rules of evidence - merely the opinion of the tribunal, we have the situation where the decision to plead rest solely on second-guessing the judge-jury-executioner.

My last effort on this.

Dicky - have you read the judgement?
There was VIDEO evidence of him doing it.

This isn't a criminal matter it's a civil matter and in fact is quasi employment (it certainly uses a lot of the processes that you'd find in an Employment Tribunal).

This 'crazy' system

Has the following;

The player appears before it on under 2 citumstnaces in the event that he was sent off or that an INDEPENDET citing officer refers him - clubs can contact the citing officer with complaints but it is the citing officer who makes the decision.

The player is presented with all the evidence in advance
They are given written details of the allegations
They are provided with the 'tariff'
They are entitled to be represented
They can express their version of events and provide mitigation in the event of a guilty plea
If found guilty they are punished against a pre published listed of suggested bans
They have the right to appeal
They have the right to go to CAS

A summary - included the hearings thought process is then published on the RFU's website to ensure transparency.

It is so far from a kangaroo court that I've disappointed myself I've even had to write all of that.

(Before you go on about you're a ref you'd agree with that - I'm also GEn. Sec at my local club and have had players banned (and got SoS) the system is fine and works well - people sometimes make mistakes. from players refs and discipline people.

[kend]

So hopefully this will dampen down some the 'grassy knoll' theories.

The judgement made it clear that they have close up video of the fingers/knuckles in the eyes.

The technique they talk of is called an 'alligator / crocodile roll' we are VERY hot on in u18 games as being dangerous.

They are also clear that it was an accident and that there was no damage - but it was RECKLESS.

If anyone thinks that trying to grab someones chin to rotate - missing and making contact with the eyes isn't something that should warrant a ban then I do despair

Could be the way Tigers are coaching the hold, as I understand it the 'gator roll' wrestling hold is a transverse grip; one arm under the arm pit and across the chest, the other between the shoulder and neck across the collarbone gripping the far biceps or shirt. The roll is toward the arm under the armpit. It's more effective than the 'saddle roll' where both arms grip under the armpits and lock over the sternum. A hold on the chin sounds very risky.

Personally I prefer to coach the saddle roll, as a missed grip on the gator roll can easily end up round the head. I'm interested to see you penalise this technique at U18 in your area, not happening where I am, most clubs and schools seem to be coaching the 'gator roll'. IMHO, if you are to penalise the move generally as dangerous, you also need to penalise the 'shoulders below hips' stance of the jackling player - as that is why the various roll moves are used?