Griffiths and Saracens

[tig1]

Interesting to read his thoughts at the weekend on the future of the premiership.

Calling for total removal of salary cap, introducing a minimum spend of 4 million (of which nine out of twelve currently don't spend), and removing relegation.

Arguing that the time is right to strike for growth and higher standards, rather than a system that has clubs within in it just trying to survive.

[tigercaspian]

I think Sarries efforts to take the game to the wider world are a good thing. Griffiths is a bright and sparky leader with some great ideas but, like most people with a big forward vision, some of those are or will turn out to be shall we say a bit wacky!!

The one thing I still don't understand is their continued inability to get decent traction on building a sound home support basis in the London area. They can almost fill Wembley etc etc etc but why, with all the population of London on their doorstep can't they make the Allianz work ?? Apart from Quins, they have no 'local' competition and nothing at all north of the river.

OK they have come a long way since the single stand on the edge of the park in Southgate but still.......or am I being too negative too early and it will all come good in the next 5 years ??

[tig1]

I think it's a far broader issue than Saracens, Tiger, and why his comments have merit.

The reality is that total premiership attendances have fallen significantly since their peak five years ago. Even if you break it down by club, something like seven of them have lower attendances than five years ago. Wasps being the worst hit.

So what he is saying really is that premiership model as it stands in its current form, has peaked with regard to public interest, and needs changing to regain upward momentum again.

I think he is correct. Fifteen years into professionalism, any clubs that were going to grow organically into serious premiership teams would have done so by now.

[DickyP]

Some sense but how does he think getting rid of relegation will help this - if by this time of the season 50% plus of the teams are playing for nothing where's the excitement to drag in the punters? Hasn't done the Rabo any good. Nor the Rugby League, where even with 50% of teams in the play-offs, a bunch of teams merely exist as whipping boys.

Spectators turn up for a spectacle or for an anticipated truly competitive event: a day at a Premiership match at Tigers always generates excitement: a wet Friday night in Stockport (or similar) with nothing to play for doesn't however good the standard of the rugby.

Buy in to his vision depends on the existence of a raft of sugar-daddies or equivalent such as there are in France and even that doesn't consistently work - ask Biarritz or Richmond - if your money source quits on you, you're dead.

Why do we care if professionalism takes a lot longer to settle into place? I certainly don't care if it takes a hundred years and the game grows (or fails) on its own merits, rather than the cheque book of rich men.

[longlivethecrumbie]

Some of those clubs will struggle to keep a static fan base or even increase it as they move around. Wasps, Sale, Sarries - possibly even London Irish (although don't quote me on that one) have moved around over the last 5 or so years - in some cases moving well away from their traditional homes.

[Tomvarndell]

Promotion and relegation must remain. Sarries were one of the clubs who didnt want relegation 14 or 15 years ago when I was watching a lot of Rotherham. At that time both Worcester and Exeter were in the second teir as well.

[Norfolk & Goode]

If you removed relegation, what would be the incentive to play to win when you're at the bottom? Worcester have a very very slight chance of staying up so they will attempt to play some of their best rugby to the end of the season. No relegation and they would probably lay their licking their wounds.

[Cardiff Tig]

Teams in 7th-11th have very little to play for though anyway. The last couple of years the team being relegated has been pretty shocking. How many in the championship could actually make a decent go at it? Bristol with their money, Leeds and possibly London Welsh would seriously struggle, everyone else would really seriously struggle!!

Whilst Tigers fans all agree that relegation is a good thing, the status quo never changes! Would be interesting to hear the views of some Newcastle and Worcester fans, see if they would still watch their teams if the threat of relegation was removed.

[jgriffin]

The relegation thing escapes me. If you want a static product it seems the way to go. Ask the Rabo outside of Ireland - failing regions especially in Wales.

Griffiths wants a millionaires playground entertainment facility. There are considerable faults currently with some teams in the AP, particularly the NotNot types with no real fanbase. However, you can sell a product if it is good enough and a vibe develops. Exeter, Glaws, Tigers, Stains are examples of vibe clubs. Sale under Diamond could become a major players if they found a base that has a good hinterland (i.e. accessible and an alternative to fussball). I suspect that the biggest fault is the free market - you need a community identity to succeed, something like the French municipal vision. Saffacens have identity problems currently although time may well develop the community feel to their fanbase. LI and Wasps have serious issues.

[Smurphswillgetya]

In response to some of the points here is my two pennies worth. This notion that Sarries are taking the game to a wider world is a good thing is IMHO rubbish. How many of the 20,000 odd supporters who turned up for the Exeter game would go to Dubai to watch a Tigers 'home game'. Even with their gimmick games and world record crowds we have topped the attendance charts since 1998 and even with our crowds we don't always make a profit. So as some have said unless you have sugar daddies with bottomless pockets most clubs would go to the wall. Without promotion and relegation clubs like Exeter would never grace the premiership. At the risk of upsetting Bill, dancing girls, pizza delivered to your seats and a fat lady singing may enhance the match day experience for some but I would rather have the excitement and thrill of our match against Saints at the weekend to enhance my match day experience. Rant over have a nice week everyone.

[tigerburnie]

Ring fencing the Premiership would be the death knell for rugby in this country, had we done it a few years back Exeter would be stuck with nowhere to go. Bristol are investing very heavily and Leeds seem to be making a big push back. Do Wuss or Falcons have a divine right to stay in the Prem on form currently?
As for no salary cap, that could end up making rugby like football with all the clubs heavily in debt. Not all clubs have foreign backers to payroll them, some actually build up a fan base and live within their means. This foolery needs to be squashed as quickly as possible, it is not in the interests of the game in general or the Premiership could end up with it's own version of Scottish soccer with an "old firm" situation and a load of also rans. At least now a club can climb on merit and results, rather than on the ability to pay inflated salaries(take a look at France, it is already showing signs of breaking up and the National team getting weaker.

[Cardiff Tig]

But if crowds are decreasing then rugby is already dying in this country, just slowly. This season the bottom 3 teams have won 8 games out of 54 (actually less as they play each other but you get my point!) - looks like a few also rans to me.

Maybe a Super League approach is needed - ring fence it for 3 years, then new teams can get promoted/relegated? Would allow serious investment for those weaker teams with the knowledge they would have 2 or 3 seasons guaranteed income after spending. Either way, we are heading towards a league where the same 4 teams fight at the bottom for nothing.

[BJ.]

I would like to see the current salary cap dispensed with as I believe it stifles the bigger clubs. I think it should be replaced with a percentage limit, e.g. a club can use up to 50% of it's annual turnover for players' wages.

I'm with Smurph when it comes to the match experience insomuch I don't want glitzy razzmatazz or cheap gimmicks. However, it might be necessary in order to attract new young blood since too many people nowadays have to be constantly 'entertained'.

[drc_007]

The reality is that total premiership attendances have fallen significantly since their peak five years ago. Even if you break it down by club, something like seven of them have lower attendances than five years ago. Wasps being the worst hit.

I'm not sure this is true?
I've just downloaded the attendance from the Premiership website.

Total attendance for the 2007/8 season, including the playoff semi-finals and final at Twickenham was 1,517,863.
So far this season with 4 rounds to go and the playoffs to come the attendance is 1,377,779. If we assume around 70,000 spectators per round on average, 15,000 for each of the semi-finals and 83,000 for the final at Twickenham then this season will have attracted around 1,770,000 spectators.

[tigerburnie]

Bj the idea of a profit related increase in the cap has been mooted before and I would not be against that, so long as the club can afford this i.e. was the profit sustainable, not a one season blip due to , for example extra gates from getting further in the Champion Cup one year.
With regards to any sort of ring fencing, that is probably illegal, if not it should be. You will stagnate the game if new blood cannot enter the Premiership, you have to look at the Championship and it's sustainability too, not just a blinkered look at the Premiership and artificially allow under acheivers to be protected, it promotes mediocrity.
As for the half time entertainment, can I ask do other sports have something going on? What ever happened to "knowledgeable debate" about the first half and a dash to the bar/toilet/burger van for whatever you require?