Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution (2)

[Steve56]

One of the reasons I get put off from reading some of the comments on this forum is reading pedantic tripe from some of the 'keyboard warriors' out there. It gets even worse during the closed season. Other club messageboards have closed down, probably because they have descended into anarchy.
The moderators have a perfect right to start a new thread, and the site would not exist without them.
I'm very interested in the outcome of the Heineken Cup talks, as are most rugby fans, and daily scan the rugby papers for news, but there has been nothing (apart from the Welsh issue) for weeks. Why people call for moderators to resign over something as trivial as this is beyond me.

[snoopster]

As for the IRB statement, no fireworks & I suppose any expectation of that was never likely to be fulfilled.

My reading of it is that it utterly derails the slightest prospect of an Anglo-Welsh League being approved. I have thought all along that PRL has been stringing the poor old Welsh along with the promise of "live horse & you'll get grass", come & play with us why don't you.

I very much doubt whether this has ever been a serious proposition from the PRL side & more than likely is a bargaining position from which they might have an alternative to caving in on the HC but not actually altering the PRL league as it stands.

Bring in the Welsh & the rest of English rugby would start to think, hey what is going on, why are the RFU watching this? The PRL aim I believe is to have a possible B& I League/Cup in some format to fill the HC gaps should the other 6 nations not have a "Road to Damascus" moment and see that PRL have been not only right, but mad keen to enrich the impoverished Celts through the munificence of that great rugby partner, BT Sport.

Gents, we have a long period of bluff & counter bluff still to come I fancy.

I'm not sure it does derail the anglo-welsh league - the situation is unchanged which is either a restraint of trade court battle for the Welsh regions to be allowed to play in a league under the RFU umbrella, the WRU giving them a permission to avoid a court battle or the WRU coming up with a deal the regions find more acceptable to stay in the Rabo.

I do think it is probably stalking horse though I suspect one for the regions and PRL - for the regions it puts more pressure on WRU since it offers the chance of an alternative to staying in the Rabo and slowly going bust under WRU control.

[Baggy Trousers]

2 Ulster playing --games on a Friday night is cheating -- No Ulster started to play games on a Friday night and discovered the crowds were bigger on Friday night than Saturday afternoon . Saturday is a family shopping day because historically Rugby in Ulster is a Protestant sport and traditionally Sunday was socially dead . Sunday games cause great difficulty at one time the Ulster Branch of the IRFU prohibited Sunday games ( it may still do for Club matches ) and Ravenhill is beside Two churches.

Fair play rumncoke some interesting points but I would like to comment on this one if I may. I don't consider playing on a Friday cheating at all and I accept the view that it maximises Ulster's crowd potential - whilst possibly minimising the opportunity for away club supporters to get across in numbers and therefore increasing an Ulster advantage - which all fine and dandy as that means in a way it increases the profile of rugby in general, but, if the HEC is played across weekends then all clubs should be liable to be playing across all of the slots with no outside factors kicking in - I know Ulster do not just play on Fridays - I'm sure I saw them on a Saturday once .

If, for example, it was more beneficial for Tigers to kick off at, say for the sake of argument, 3pm on a Saturday - because more people could make it and we'd have more chance of games selling out, plus we are able to shop and do other things on a Sunday and many of our fans travel distances to WR that often preclude them getting to WR - or away grounds on a Friday night - or back from an away game late on a Sunday - should we be allowed to have more 3pm Saturday kickoffs?

I don't think Ulster get preferential treatment but I can see how some think they do.

Don't know if that makes sense the way I've written it.

There are as always various agendas mixed up in any given situation Whitecap, so here is my take on that bit about Friday night Ulster games.

SKY have a big say in deciding the fixture schedule, we all know that. They have scheduled their opening Friday night round one game at Ravenhill in 8 of the last 9 years. I do not believe for one minute that Ulster have that amount of clout with SKY. I believe that SKY have done that simply because they are guaranteed a sell out crowd & an extremely raucous atmosphere - in TV terms, box office.


Does that give Ulster an advantage? Well certainly it does no harm to get off to a good start of course but the down side is that in 8 of the last 9 years we have had to play the crucial round 6 game away from home - that in my opinion is a major difficulty, I'd take a home round 6 game any time.

There are of course prime slots in the TV schedule and my guess would be that the 6pm Saturday game & the final Sunday game are big for TV. My guess would be that Tigers feature heavily in those slots. especially in round 6.

Swings and roundabouts.

[Bill W (2)]

1. The English will not play under the auspices of ERC;

2. The French may or may not play without the English but if they do play will field second teams;

3. The Welsh may not play unless WRU form 4 new Regions;

4. The Irish, Scots and Italians will play because they have nothing else to do.

Have IRB really taken the ball? Or is it just more politics?

[snipewatson]

1. The English will not play under the auspices of ERC;possibly, but they will be all the poorer, literally

2. The French may or may not play without the English but if they do play will field second teams;They didn't do that the last time the English sat it out.

3. The Welsh may not play unless WRU form 4 new Regions;the Welsh will play and it is highly unlikely they will have to form new teams.

4. The Irish, Scots and Italians will play because they have nothing else to do.We will still have the Pro 12, yes 12. English clubs will have themselves and nobody else to play with.

Have IRB really taken the ball? Or is it just more politics? What the IRB said in that statement and what was said in private may not have been exactly the same. Private discussions may have been rather more forthright.

As always Bill. Time will tell pip pip for now.

[Bill W (2)]

As always Bill. Time will tell pip pip for now.

Pip pip!
We wait and see!

[YoungMan]

4. The Irish, Scots and Italians will play because they have nothing else to do.We will still have the Pro 12, yes 12. English clubs will have themselves and nobody else to play with.

Oh sir, I have just had an awful thought

[tig1]

Wasn't the drubbing that Ulster gave Tigers back in 2004 at Ravenhill played on a Sunday.

[snipewatson]

Wasn't the drubbing that Ulster gave Tigers back in 2004 at Ravenhill played on a Sunday.

Yes, but that was cheating.

[Baggy Trousers]

Wasn't the drubbing that Ulster gave Tigers back in 2004 at Ravenhill played on a Sunday.

Yes, but that was cheating.

Yes, a certain Rev Doc Paisley & lunatic acolytes unsuccessfully picketed the game singing hymns and trying to save Ulstermen from the fiery flames of hell but the walls did not come tumbling down - well, except Leicester's.

The great big lump Martin Johnston came on as a sub wearing 19 & was ribbed furiously by a happy crowd already 33-0 up but fair play to him, after the game he stood around for at least half an hour signing autographs for kids.

One of my fellow Ulstermen may correct me but I believe that was the last time Ulster played a home game on a Sunday.

[Baggy Trousers]

As for the IRB statement, no fireworks & I suppose any expectation of that was never likely to be fulfilled.

My reading of it is that it utterly derails the slightest prospect of an Anglo-Welsh League being approved. I have thought all along that PRL has been stringing the poor old Welsh along with the promise of "live horse & you'll get grass", come & play with us why don't you.

I very much doubt whether this has ever been a serious proposition from the PRL side & more than likely is a bargaining position from which they might have an alternative to caving in on the HC but not actually altering the PRL league as it stands.

Bring in the Welsh & the rest of English rugby would start to think, hey what is going on, why are the RFU watching this? The PRL aim I believe is to have a possible B& I League/Cup in some format to fill the HC gaps should the other 6 nations not have a "Road to Damascus" moment and see that PRL have been not only right, but mad keen to enrich the impoverished Celts through the munificence of that great rugby partner, BT Sport.

Gents, we have a long period of bluff & counter bluff still to come I fancy.

I'm not sure it does derail the anglo-welsh league - the situation is unchanged which is either a restraint of trade court battle for the Welsh regions to be allowed to play in a league under the RFU umbrella, the WRU giving them a permission to avoid a court battle or the WRU coming up with a deal the regions find more acceptable to stay in the Rabo.

I do think it is probably stalking horse though I suspect one for the regions and PRL - for the regions it puts more pressure on WRU since it offers the chance of an alternative to staying in the Rabo and slowly going bust under WRU control.

Then again Snoopster, you are conveniently forgetting the English side of things, civil war I suspect if 4 Welsh teams were admitted rather than what the championship sides have asked for - an increase to a 14 club league. RFU have been keeping their powder dry but would they simply sit back and ignore the IRB, not by the sound of Bill Beaumont.

Furthermore, what would happen to a region who took court action? Well every chance the WRU would suspend them from playing immediately and withdraw funding,pending the legal action. Additionally as per the previous cases taken, links of which were on the mark 1 thread, the chances of success in court are limited and the costs prohibitive. Lose and they are immediately bankrupt.

I shall be surprised if any of the jumbled mess ends up in court, too little to be gained and hugely costly and protracted. Some would go bust whilst the wheels of justice ground slowly towards a decision. I have two good friends, one a solicitor, one a barrister, neither believe restraint of trade action would succeed. Of course it is not hard to get a legal eagle to encourage action with the presumed promise of success followed by disappointment & substantial costs. Many have lost their businesses on such decisions.

[mol2]

We all know that the TV companies are largely in charge of when games are played, along with the local Police force, the fans tend to come way down the list. I suspect preventing the away fans from attending is probably low on the home team's agenda as selling tickets generates income, and unless a sell out is guaranteed, then away fans are a valuable commodity.

Perhaps in the past it may not have been a comfortable situation in Ulster to have a load of hapless English rugby fans wandering around in Northern Ireland, however I assume the political scene has changed from those days? Would that have been a factor in Ulster having Friday games?

In an ideal world all games would be on a Saturday afternoon so away fans go travel to and from away matches but TV money trumps us fans.

In the end the whole problem is about who gets the power and the TV money.
Those that did have the power and (in the opinion of the others) too great a share of the TV money, didn't negotiate.
The English & French resigned and now won't negotiate!

[Baggy Trousers]

We all know that the TV companies are largely in charge of when games are played, along with the local Police force, the fans tend to come way down the list. I suspect preventing the away fans from attending is probably low on the home team's agenda as selling tickets generates income, and unless a sell out is guaranteed, then away fans are a valuable commodity.

Perhaps in the past it may not have been a comfortable situation in Ulster to have a load of hapless English rugby fans wandering around in Northern Ireland, however I assume the political scene has changed from those days? Would that have been a factor in Ulster having Friday games? Not really even at the worst of the past 40 years sport & visiting fans have never had any trouble and barring the terrorism NI always had a comparatively low crime rate, particularly violent crime. In general visitors from anywhere in the world found a warm welcome - it was our fellow Ulstermen who were at threat

In an ideal world all games would be on a Saturday afternoon so away fans go travel to and from away matches but TV money trumps us fans.
Absolutely agree with you, though of course we know that TV dictates & in all honesty when not travelling I love a good weekend watching 5 or 6 matches. I am travelling next week mind you and am booked through to Monday, sadly the Sunday matches look pretty uninspiring BUT any recommendations where to watch HC next Sunday, I assume most pubs show wendyball?

In the end the whole problem is about who gets the power and the TV money.
Those that did have the power and (in the opinion of the others) too great a share of the TV money, didn't negotiate.
The English & French resigned and now won't negotiate! I suspect that will change.

[arickett]

You still dont get it prl are set up for no European rugby next year. You had 3 years to talk about a fair solution. It now sign up or tough. You have folded on every point but the main one anyway.

[snipewatson]

You still dont get it prl are set up for no European rugby next year. You had 3 years to talk about a fair solution. It now sign up or tough. You have folded on every point but the main one anyway.

As a point of information, how will the funding shortfall from no European rugby be made up?