Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

[fleabane]

A very old letter, methinks!

[drc_007]

Just back from skiing in Italy, spoke to a couple of Italian fans (though I suspect the views of fans are not being considered by any country). Their view was that the current arrangement for participation in the Rabo is unsustainable. They have to pay several million to take part and the cost of travel far outweighs any revenue that is generated. Their preferred option is to revert back to an Italian league and to support France on a new European competition organised by FIRA.

[G.K]

Personally I really don't care how the Irish/Scots/Welsh/French/Italians organise there respective leagues nor whether they have a club structure or a regional franchise structure, provided that when it comes to European competitions it's a level playing field in terms of qualification and financial benefit etc.

The problem was that it wasn't a level playing field and I've always felt that the Rabbo teams were over represented and had an advantage in that players were to varying degrees ring fenced for European (and National)competitions, although only Leinster seem to have been able to successfully exploit that advantage.

I think the big mistake here is that the other unions and ERC thought that the French and English clubs were using withdrawal as a negotiating tactic rather than taking it at face value and thus the concerns were addressed too little too late as they say.

I still expect that some fudged deal will be cobbled together at some point, when the port and brandy eventually run out. There are just too many who will loose out if not. However there will be some more huffing and puffing before then.

[drc_007]

Interesting views from the clubs in Wales http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugb ... :censored:-6468100

A few points, all clubs seem to be totally reliant on the WRU for survival, hence real concerns that any increase in funding for the regions will come from "their pot".

Regions have little or no interest in or contact with club rugby in Wales, and this comment summed it up nicely

“It’s extremely limited from the Ospreys. We had a bit of an eye-opener when our former player Owen Williams went from the Scarlets to Leicester Tigers.
“Leicester contacted us as a thank you for developing Owen and have been outstanding. They paid for a bus to take 50 of our youngsters to a match at Welford Road, gave them free tickets, a trainings session, a tour of the ground and they got to meet the players. (Well done Tigers )

Rugby at lower levels in Wales is dying, youth rugby is on life support and youngsters are supporting soccer.

Central contracts are supported by all, but there is no detail of where the money will come from (but I suspect not from "our pot").

Mind you I suspect they did not expect this version of central contracts

The Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) is considering a plan to sign six key international players and loan them to Aviva Premiership clubs, according to The Rugby Paper.
Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/wales/rugby/st ... UAHBbe3.99

[biffer]

Championship chairman speaks out

http://www.espn.co.uk/premiership-2013- ... 10231.html

The English game will go crazy if the Welsh are admitted

[Baggy Trousers]

Latest from Stephen Jones in the Sunday Times -

"THE bitter disputes crippling European rugby have taken another turn as the top English and Welsh clubs begin planning the formation of a British & Irish Cup, which they hope to launch in October. All 12 English Premiership clubs together with the 10 regions and provinces from Ireland, Scotland and Wales would be invited to participate.

The event is meant to fill the void left by the likely absence next season of a pan-European tournament, since the existing Heineken Cup and the mooted Rugby Champions Cup, a rival event created by the English and French clubs, look doomed. Last week, a statement by the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) terminated its relationship with the regions as of June, throwing the existence of Cardiff Blues, Ospreys, Scarlets and Newport-Gwent Dragons into serious doubt."

Jones is a horrible pustule on the raggedy wrinkled rump of journalism. He is getting worse year on year.

[jacothelad]

Latest from Stephen Jones in the Sunday Times -

"THE bitter disputes crippling European rugby have taken another turn as the top English and Welsh clubs begin planning the formation of a British & Irish Cup, which they hope to launch in October. All 12 English Premiership clubs together with the 10 regions and provinces from Ireland, Scotland and Wales would be invited to participate.

The event is meant to fill the void left by the likely absence next season of a pan-European tournament, since the existing Heineken Cup and the mooted Rugby Champions Cup, a rival event created by the English and French clubs, look doomed. Last week, a statement by the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) terminated its relationship with the regions as of June, throwing the existence of Cardiff Blues, Ospreys, Scarlets and Newport-Gwent Dragons into serious doubt."

Jones is a horrible pustule on the raggedy wrinkled rump of journalism. He is getting worse year on year.

So you're saying he's actually improving?

[misty]

Herr Roger Lewis in the WRU bunker Dec 31st.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=yo ... pp=desktop

[drc_007]

A nice one page summary from Brian Moore

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... aters.html

[Baggy Trousers]

A nice one page summary from Brian Moore

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... aters.html

Interesting enough from Brian, a man I have infinitely more respect for than grumpy muppet/journalist Stephen Jones.

One small point that interests me is the constant references from English journalists of ERC incompetence. I'd make a number of points on that.

1) the ERC committee is made up of representatives of all 6 nations - 2 from each participating country, from both Unions & clubs.

Therefore the disgruntled - English, French & Welsh have all had an equal input into such alleged incompetence as the other three nations.

2) Mark McCafferty headed the commercial committee for at least 3 years. Is it him at whose door the charge of incompetence should be laid?

3) Does the charge of incompetence actually stand up. The HC & to a lesser degree, the Amlin are hugely successful competitions which the supposedly incompetent ERC have brought from nothing to its current elevated status as the fan's favourite rugby competition, certainly in the NH.

I understand that most of you at one time or another have made this accusation on this thread but is it simply a parroted default position or have any of you ever actually troubled yourselves to investigate and decided for yourselves upon. If you are convinced of incompetence, what do you base it on & who is to blame given it appears to be a partnership of 6 equally represented nations?

That apart, I think Brian has laid out more or less the position as it stands.

[Bill W (2)]

If you are convinced of incompetence, what do you base it on & who is to blame given it appears to be a partnership of 6 equally represented nations?

That apart, I think Brian has laid out more or less the position as it stands.

I agree. The charge of incompetance goes back months (years even) and surrounds qualification, revenue distribution, commercial exploitation and governance. Only after France and England served notice of withdraral (and then after several further months dealay and the appointment of an "independant" mediator)were these points adressed and then in favour of the complainants. This extensive delay of itself is indicative of incompetence.

Who to blame? A fish rots from the head! JPL.

[drc_007]

If you are convinced of incompetence, what do you base it on & who is to blame given it appears to be a partnership of 6 equally represented nations?

In the HC the rugby has been a great success, but I'd give the credit to the teams not the organising committee, the Amilin has not been a success , too many vast mismatches in the group stages.

As for the ERC and the HC they have overseen a competition in which around half the competing team, or 2/3 of the potential competing teams representing something like 75% of the revenue have expressed dissatisfaction for several years. The fact that the ERC did nothing has to be regarded as incompetence. The about face once the French and English teams had left just underlines their incompetence.

Who argued what on the ERC we will likely never know but as a collective body they have been shown not fit for purpose.

[TomWeston]

A nice one page summary from Brian Moore

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... aters.html

Interesting enough from Brian, a man I have infinitely more respect for than grumpy muppet/journalist Stephen Jones.

One small point that interests me is the constant references from English journalists of ERC incompetence. I'd make a number of points on that.

1) the ERC committee is made up of representatives of all 6 nations - 2 from each participating country, from both Unions & clubs.

Therefore the disgruntled - English, French & Welsh have all had an equal input into such alleged incompetence as the other three nations.

2) Mark McCafferty headed the commercial committee for at least 3 years. Is it him at whose door the charge of incompetence should be laid?

3) Does the charge of incompetence actually stand up. The HC & to a lesser degree, the Amlin are hugely successful competitions which the supposedly incompetent ERC have brought from nothing to its current elevated status as the fan's favourite rugby competition, certainly in the NH.

I understand that most of you at one time or another have made this accusation on this thread but is it simply a parroted default position or have any of you ever actually troubled yourselves to investigate and decided for yourselves upon. If you are convinced of incompetence, what do you base it on & who is to blame given it appears to be a partnership of 6 equally represented nations?

That apart, I think Brian has laid out more or less the position as it stands.

The current state of ERC ( non-)negotiations and the parlous relationship between the WRU and the Welsh regionclubs should give you some idea of just how difficult it must have been to get change on the unfair HC arrangements. Only recently have the English/French moved decisively to change the status quo. In ERC board meetings previously there would undoubtedly have been little concensus, only majority voting, with the takers, particularly the ItalCelts, wanting more of the same. Our new Irish friends on here often ask why did the English representatives on the ERC vote for a new Sky agreement when they had already sold PRL rights to BT. They don't seem to understand the split between corporate and individual responsibility. Presumably if it had been the Irish and not the AngloFrench clubs which had wanted out they would have voted down the ERC/Sky agreement out of spite rather than say good luck to you, we won't be accused of stifling your commercial opportunities even though you bring this contract to the table knowing full well that the the Franglais had served notice that they were out.

[SouthMunster]

Our new Irish friends on here often ask why did the English representatives on the ERC vote for a new Sky agreement when they had already sold PRL rights to BT.

Clearly those Irish posters have forgotten the word that comes after perfidious.

[Bill W (2)]

Our new Irish friends on here often ask why did the English representatives on the ERC vote for a new Sky agreement when they had already sold PRL rights to BT.

Clearly those Irish posters have forgotten the word that comes after perfidious.

What they have not forgotten, I am sure, is that at the times of serving notice of wirhdrawral and subsequently repeatedly confirmed is that they will not under any circumstances participate in a tournament adminstered and governed by ERC.