Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

[SinE]

Just so ybh.

You sit on a Board which comprises 12 members and an "independant" chairman.

The "independant" chairman only votes when the decision is a tie and then votes to maintain the status quo.

For two years you make proposals that are supported by 3 other members. On each occasion six vote against (not always the same 6).

So you quit.

And waste material hits the air extraction device. And an "independant" arbiter is appointed, and suddenly even though you do not attend the meetings your proposals are accepted!!

Conclusions?

Its 18 votes not 12.

England has 5 votes (2.5 each for PRL & RFU). France has 5 votes (2.5 each for FIR & LNR). The other 8 votes are split between the rest.

The board of ERC meets on 3 November and the agenda sent out this week includes the election of the chairman. It is understood Lux wants to carry on and Wheeler would need the support of the French clubs who, like Premier Rugby, have 2.5 of the 18 votes held by the directors. If the Rugby Football Union, which also has 2.5 votes, sided with Wheeler, he would need two other votes to beat Lux.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2010/o ... -rugby-cup

Peter Wheeler only had the support of the RFU, PRL & LNR = 7.5 votes.

Hardly surprising that the FFR were going to turn their back on Lux and vote for an Englishman! Lux got 10.5 votes.

Thats democracy for you!

[sk 88]

Just so ybh.

You sit on a Board which comprises 12 members and an "independant" chairman.

The "independant" chairman only votes when the decision is a tie and then votes to maintain the status quo.

For two years you make proposals that are supported by 3 other members. On each occasion six vote against (not always the same 6).

So you quit.

And waste material hits the air extraction device. And an "independant" arbiter is appointed, and suddenly even though you do not attend the meetings your proposals are accepted!!

Conclusions?

Its 18 votes not 12.

England has 5 votes (2.5 each for PRL & RFU). France has 5 votes (2.5 each for FIR & LNR). The other 8 votes are split between the rest.

The board of ERC meets on 3 November and the agenda sent out this week includes the election of the chairman. It is understood Lux wants to carry on and Wheeler would need the support of the French clubs who, like Premier Rugby, have 2.5 of the 18 votes held by the directors. If the Rugby Football Union, which also has 2.5 votes, sided with Wheeler, he would need two other votes to beat Lux.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2010/o ... -rugby-cup

Peter Wheeler only had the support of the RFU, PRL & LNR = 7.5 votes.

Hardly surprising that the FFR were going to turn their back on Lux and vote for an Englishman! Lux got 10.5 votes.

Thats democracy for you!

Except that is entirely wrong.

PRL and RFU get 2.5 votes each. LNR get 4 and FFR 1, The Welsh regions get 1 vote and the WRU 1 vote. SRU, FIR and IRFU get 2 each.

Wheeler got backed by PRL, LNR, RRW and RFU. A clear majority you might think. Except the FFR used a clause in their leasing of votes to LNR "for the protection of the nation" or some such to take them back and vote for Lux.

Wheeler had the backing of 30 of the 38 clubs.

Democracy indeed!!

What we want is the current set up but with us getting the English say and the LNR getting the French say.

So why won;t the gravy soaked blazers at the IRFU deal with the English club owners? Spite or Arrogance?

[SinE]

I'm going on who the Guardian said had what votes. They said that the LNR & PRL had 2.5 votes.

Peter Wheeler would have been entirely unsuited to being an Independent Chair (which Lux is - he doesn't have any vested interest in a club, province, region or league).

Would you really expect the Unions to hand over a competition that they created to the Clubs? Manchester United or Bayern Munich have no say in how Uefa operates the Champions League, so I don't know how you think that clubs should dictate how competitions are run.

TBH, I think the IRFU are to be admired for standing up for the less powerful Unions against the PRL bully boys when it could have been easy to dump them and taken the cash on offer from BT.

------------------------

Translation from Jos, a Montpellier poster on munsterfans of newspaper report in France today:

Camou left the meeting and let Blanco to discuss with Goze and the LNR. His position is clear: the European cup will be played under the supervision of the ERC. The clubs will never have the power. After having offered money to clubs which will play in the H-Cup, he's now making threats. If the clubs don't engage with the ERC, he will not sign any agreement with the LNR for the top 14.

Our law in France is simple: Unions manage the National Teams, the referees and all the amateur competitions. And the Leagues manages the professional competition. It's a delegation of power which is the subject of an agreement to sign for a limited time. The LNR has this power (given by the FFR) until the end of the year.

So basically without a new agreement, the FFR could give the management of the Professional rugby to a new agency (very unlikely) or more likely to prevent the negotiations on the new TV rights. The clubs could lose a lot of money.

Apparently the club would not be as united as before, and we learn there will be a meeting (thursday) between all the Unions except the RFU to discuss about the H-Cup. Camou and the other executive want a competition without the English teams to punish the RFU for its betrayal.

Lets hope the Irish talk them out of doing that

[Starburst]

these were not the key issues to the Unions.

He says. Why then did it take the withdrawral of the French and English CLubs and, after many months, the appointment of an independant arbiter for these two points to be conceded?

Perhaps we should be pointing the finger at the PRL reps poor negotiating skills as the reason for no agreement because as soon as he wasn’t involved agreement seemed to follow pretty quickly. And yet this doesn't seem to be enough to satisfy PRL.

Is it possible that there has been a hidden PRL agenda? Make lots of noise that ERC won't negotiate on qualification etc However in meetings your packaging these seemingly reasonable proposals in an acceptable way ie: as a package including a change in governance or no provision to ensure at least 1 club per country. Then use the supposed intransigence as an excuse to start your own competition.

[Farmboy]

Sin e if you believe that the IRFU took their stance for "standing up for the less powerful Unions" IMSVHO you are being very naive,more a case of self interest.

[cidermark]

After having offered money to clubs which will play in the H-Cup, he's now making threats. If the clubs don't engage with the ERC, he will not sign any agreement with the LNR for the top 14

It's not exactly a good negotiating tactic really!

If you can't bribe them into submission, bully them

[SouthMunster]

It's not exactly a good negotiating tactic really!

If you can't bribe them into submission, bully them

Carrot and stick

When the two are combined the effect on cooperation is dramatic, suggesting that rewards and punishments are complements in producing cooperation.

http://econpapers.repec.org/paper/oreuoecwp/2002-01.htm

[cidermark]

It's not exactly a good negotiating tactic really!

If you can't bribe them into submission, bully them

Carrot and stick

When the two are combined the effect on cooperation is dramatic, suggesting that rewards and punishments are complements in producing cooperation.

http://econpapers.repec.org/paper/oreuoecwp/2002-01.htm

Let's pluck another search from Google into this thread ......

http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2013 ... dren/?_r=0

[snipewatson]

http://nsa33.casimages.com/img/2013/11/ ... 856122.jpg

Looks like the FFR are starting to play hardball.

[Bill W (2)]

Actually I was not referring to Wheelbraces non election but the contimued refusal of ERC to address qualification and revenue distribution issues.

I think it was Dr Parkinson who coined the law "Delay is the most effective form of denial"!

Only after an independant arbitrator was appointed did ERC concede on both points.

Should not the Board of Erc (absent the LNR and PRL reps who did not attend) plus JPL have not immediately resigned en masse? A massive vote of no confidence!

[snipewatson]

Actually I was not referring to Wheelbraces non election but the contimued refusal of ERC to address qualification and revenue distribution issues.

I think it was Dr Parkinson who coined the law "Delay is the most effective form of denial"!

Only after an independant arbitrator was appointed did ERC concede on both points.

Should not the Board of Erc (absent the LNR and PRL reps who did not attend) plus JPL have not immediately resigned en masse? A massive vote of no confidence!

Who appointed the independant arbitrator Bill?
Bill you appear to be looking for grounds to declare victory in some of your posts.
If Pierre Camou and the FFR have their way, there may be an HEC minus the English clubs. Not much of a victory there.........for anyone.

[Baggy Trousers]

Actually I was not referring to Wheelbraces non election but the contimued refusal of ERC to address qualification and revenue distribution issues.

I think it was Dr Parkinson who coined the law "Delay is the most effective form of denial"!

Only after an independant arbitrator was appointed did ERC concede on both points.

Should not the Board of Erc (absent the LNR and PRL reps who did not attend) plus JPL have not immediately resigned en masse? A massive vote of no confidence!

Who appointed the independant arbitrator Bill?
Bill you appear to be looking for grounds to declare victory in some of your posts.
If Pierre Camou and the FFR have their way, there may be an HEC minus the English clubs. Not much of a victory there.........for anyone.

Indeed Snipe, the following indicates pretty strongly that the ERC will run competitions next season but sadly without the English clubs.
In another significant development regarding the ongoing impasses over the future of European club rugby, representatives from the French, Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italian unions will meet in Dublin on Thursday in an attempt to break the current logjam, and to that end will begin drawing up plans for a Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup without the English clubs.

This followed a meeting between representatives of the French Federation (FFR) and Ligue Nationale de Rugby (LNR) in Marcoussis last week to continue discussions regarding a new accord for player release, television rights and so forth. The FFR President Pierre Camou apparently began the meeting by warning the LNR that no new accord will be agreed until such time as the clubs cease talking about joining the Rugby Champions Cup – the breakaway tournament proposed by Premiership Rugby (PRL) – and resolve the future of European competitions. With that, Camou walked out of the room to leave Serge Blanco to chair the meeting.

Having offered the French clubs €2 million apiece for participating in next season’s Heineken Cup, it is understood that Camou has also given the French clubs until early December to return to the ERC fold or else he will begin exploring other means of entering French teams through central contracting with the FFR.

Under French government law, the French clubs cannot join a cross-border competition without the approval of the FFR and IRB, and Camou’s stance has been consistent from the word go.

Founding Unions
When representatives of the six respective founding Unions and Federations of the Heineken Cup conceded to the demands of the English and French clubs at ERC mediation talks on October 24th in Dublin regarding a 20-team tournament format, meritocratic qualification and funding for the Heineken Cup, it was widely if wrongly perceived as a climbdown.

However, the compromises on all of the above came with a hardening of resolve amongst the Unions and Federations that there would be no climbdown on governance of the game and specifically a pan-European tournament. In this they have been backed by the IRB President Bernard Lapasset.

According to yesterday’s Midi Olimpique, the French clubs are now less unified than when the proposed Rugby Champions Cup was first officially announced in September.

It also suggested that several Top 14 presidents have been looking for more information on the FFR’s position re Europe, and are ready to change tack with a view to competing in a European Cup organised by ERC. It also noted LNR has yet to host its proposed press conference in early November outlining plans for the Champions Cup, and that the LNR has been backed into a corner.

Nor do Camou’s actions constitute mere grandstanding. Camou is resolute in his determination that the Heineken Cup will continue under the auspices of the ERC. Furthermore, his insistence that the French remain on board the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup is not purely out of loyalty to the ERC, but a steadfast belief that the Unions and Federations, along with the IRB, maintain governance of the game rather than a new breed of club owner in England and France. Camou, the respective Unions and the ERC board are adamant they will adhere to the Sky TV deal.

Tue, Nov 19, 2013, 01:00

First published: Tue, Nov 19, 2013, 01:00


I readily admit that I want control of the competitions to remain with the Unions, however I have no hang ups about ditching the ERC name even if any new body would effectively be more or less the same.

I would 100% prefer that the HC next year had all the countries involved but if appears that the PRL has effectively ensured that cannot happen with their BT deal. I had hoped that there would be an eventual compromise between SKY & BT but that appears no longer on the table.

I am pleased the Unions are likely to hold sway, I'm more than unhappy that a great tournament is apparently going to fracture. Not sure where all this will leave the RFU & the preparations for RWC 2015, perhaps it will have no effect. I hope not, for much as I am not personally hugely interested in RWCs (Ireland will not win one in my lifetime) I don't want any of our tournaments ruined. Rugby is a small fish in financial terms & global interest terms therefore not overly stable financially, we are in danger of eating ourselves alive from the inside.

[snipewatson]

Actually I was not referring to Wheelbraces non election but the contimued refusal of ERC to address qualification and revenue distribution issues.

I think it was Dr Parkinson who coined the law "Delay is the most effective form of denial"!

Only after an independant arbitrator was appointed did ERC concede on both points.

Should not the Board of Erc (absent the LNR and PRL reps who did not attend) plus JPL have not immediately resigned en masse? A massive vote of no confidence!

Who appointed the independant arbitrator Bill?
Bill you appear to be looking for grounds to declare victory in some of your posts.
If Pierre Camou and the FFR have their way, there may be an HEC minus the English clubs. Not much of a victory there.........for anyone.

Indeed Snipe, the following indicates pretty strongly that the ERC will run competitions next season but sadly without the English clubs.
In another significant development regarding the ongoing impasses over the future of European club rugby, representatives from the French, Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italian unions will meet in Dublin on Thursday in an attempt to break the current logjam, and to that end will begin drawing up plans for a Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup without the English clubs.

This followed a meeting between representatives of the French Federation (FFR) and Ligue Nationale de Rugby (LNR) in Marcoussis last week to continue discussions regarding a new accord for player release, television rights and so forth. The FFR President Pierre Camou apparently began the meeting by warning the LNR that no new accord will be agreed until such time as the clubs cease talking about joining the Rugby Champions Cup – the breakaway tournament proposed by Premiership Rugby (PRL) – and resolve the future of European competitions. With that, Camou walked out of the room to leave Serge Blanco to chair the meeting.

Having offered the French clubs €2 million apiece for participating in next season’s Heineken Cup, it is understood that Camou has also given the French clubs until early December to return to the ERC fold or else he will begin exploring other means of entering French teams through central contracting with the FFR.

Under French government law, the French clubs cannot join a cross-border competition without the approval of the FFR and IRB, and Camou’s stance has been consistent from the word go.

Founding Unions
When representatives of the six respective founding Unions and Federations of the Heineken Cup conceded to the demands of the English and French clubs at ERC mediation talks on October 24th in Dublin regarding a 20-team tournament format, meritocratic qualification and funding for the Heineken Cup, it was widely if wrongly perceived as a climbdown.

However, the compromises on all of the above came with a hardening of resolve amongst the Unions and Federations that there would be no climbdown on governance of the game and specifically a pan-European tournament. In this they have been backed by the IRB President Bernard Lapasset.

According to yesterday’s Midi Olimpique, the French clubs are now less unified than when the proposed Rugby Champions Cup was first officially announced in September.

It also suggested that several Top 14 presidents have been looking for more information on the FFR’s position re Europe, and are ready to change tack with a view to competing in a European Cup organised by ERC. It also noted LNR has yet to host its proposed press conference in early November outlining plans for the Champions Cup, and that the LNR has been backed into a corner.

Nor do Camou’s actions constitute mere grandstanding. Camou is resolute in his determination that the Heineken Cup will continue under the auspices of the ERC. Furthermore, his insistence that the French remain on board the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup is not purely out of loyalty to the ERC, but a steadfast belief that the Unions and Federations, along with the IRB, maintain governance of the game rather than a new breed of club owner in England and France. Camou, the respective Unions and the ERC board are adamant they will adhere to the Sky TV deal.

Tue, Nov 19, 2013, 01:00

First published: Tue, Nov 19, 2013, 01:00


I readily admit that I want control of the competitions to remain with the Unions, however I have no hang ups about ditching the ERC name even if any new body would effectively be more or less the same.

I would 100% prefer that the HC next year had all the countries involved but if appears that the PRL has effectively ensured that cannot happen with their BT deal. I had hoped that there would be an eventual compromise between SKY & BT but that appears no longer on the table.

I am pleased the Unions are likely to hold sway, I'm more than unhappy that a great tournament is apparently going to fracture. Not sure where all this will leave the RFU & the preparations for RWC 2015, perhaps it will have no effect. I hope not, for much as I am not personally hugely interested in RWCs (Ireland will not win one in my lifetime) I don't want any of our tournaments ruined. Rugby is a small fish in financial terms & global interest terms therefore not overly stable financially, we are in danger of eating ourselves alive from the inside.

I concur 100% with this assessment. We won the European Cup in 1999 and it has always been devalued because there were no English teams in it. Despite the fact that we defeated the top 3 French clubs at the time, in the QF, SF and final. So there will be no rejoicing here if the English clubs are excluded.
I would also add that if the premature and cavalier actions of PRL in signing a contract with BT have effectively FUBARed the HEC, I hope that the perpetrators of this heinous crime will receive the summary justice they deserve for their complete lack of any due diligence.

[Jimmy Skitz]

do we even know if the ERC contract with Sky was put put for public tender as it is legally required to do so? seemed to be a deal out of he blue and given their practice so far I doubt BT would have been shy of making a big offer

[snipewatson]

do we even know if the ERC contract with Sky was put put for public tender as it is legally required to do so? seemed to be a deal out of he blue and given their practice so far I doubt BT would have been shy of making a big offer

Information about the ERC SKY deal is as scarce as information about the PRL BT deal, but given the due diligence records of the two organisations, I'll suspect the ERC had their ducks in a row.