Now I've caught my breath........

[Nik]

I need to get this off my chest - i'm totally disappointed by Ayerza's 'Flatman' tactics and not binding - which was so so blatant last Saturday - some tigers supporters were quite indignant that i even pointed it out to my husband - but i was really miffed at him.

He is becoming an even bigger penalty magnet and i'm sick to the back teeth at his antics. He is an excellant player and does not need to restort to this...

Also Georgie Chuter is one of my favourite players and he was up to no good too on Saturday - why oh why was this being done during a :censored: final - and then the team are disappointed at losing!!!!!!!!!

Don't get me wrong i'm so proud of the team but this is unacceptable... Ayerza should have been replaced during the first half, IMHO. I only hope he learns not to do this next season... thanks for listening!

[Gibbo12]

RE Ayerza.

An ESPN commentator (Kay, I think it was) highlighted that Quins' prop James Johnston had given the most penalties away throughout the season for illegal binding at scrum-time. He cited this as a critical area when coming face to face with Ayerza, in terms of how the game would be refereed, as if Johnston was to be 'allowed' to get away with binding on the armpit of Ayerza throughout the game, rather than legally on the arm, then Quins scrum could potentially gain the upper hand in this area.

The binding of Johnston on Ayerza was noticeably dubious throughout much of the game.

Shortly after Cole leaving the pitch, Kay reported seeing Cole going balmy at an assistant referee from the players area as Johnston again bound illegally on Ayerza's armpit. If I remember correctly, this was the first instance of a penalty being awarded to Tigers due to illegal binding from James Johnston, with the assistant ref stepping in to notify Wayne Barnes.

With your anger towards Ayerza's binding issues, this may go a long way in explaining the 'dark arts' that were going on between the two. Ayerza has had a fine season.

[mike]

I would have started with Muipola at loosehead .

[tigerburnie]

Have to say,re Ayerza Nik,it was indeed Johnson binding illegally.Ayerza was very patient letting him get away with it.He should have asked Geordie to have a word with the ref about it,Johnno would certainly have had a go about it.
Problem is when a back is skipper ,unless he's told there's a problem,he can't ask for the ref to come round to that side and monitor it.

[darkartsrugby]

Gibbo12, binding on the arm in the scrum is a penalty. In accordance with IRB law 20.3 binding on the arm in the scrum is illegal (


d) Binding by tight head props. A tight head prop must bind on the opposing loose head prop by placing the right arm outside the left upper arm of the opposing loose head prop. The tight head prop must grip the loose head prop’s jersey with the right hand only on the back or side. The tight head prop must not grip the chest, arm, sleeve or collar of the opposition loose head prop.

For those not familiar with the beloved 'dark arts' here is a rundown of what was going on with Ayerza v Johnston.

If a loosehead (Ayerza) feels that the tighthead is binding on his arm and up towards the armpit area rather than across his back, then it will often mean that they themselves refuse to bind since (as above) their arm is required to be inside that of the tightheads and they will then be caught in a position that stops them getting a shove on whilst also being forced out of the scrum, allowing for the tighthead to get in on the hooker.

The penalty should go against the tighthead (Johnston) since they must not exert any downward pressure and also must not bind on the arm.

There is often a lot going on in the front row that goes unnoticed by those with no experience of playing there and even those who do. However, it should be officiated better

Have a read of this article by Brian Moore http://www.rugbyrefs.com/wiki/index.php ... Scrum_Tips
It is fairly basic but lets you know what is going on in some circumstances. Although we don't agree with all of this and we wholeheartedly disagree when he talks about guesswork, experienced front rowers can tell what is happening. He should be able to as well

[old one eye]

When a prop gets a illegal bind on an the opposing props arm/armpit it prevents the opposing player from binding correctly. Johnson is known for it. Why was Barnes not watching? Don't blame Marcos.

[the stig]

when a loose head fails to bind or binds illegally it is no where near as bad as a tight head binding illegally, the tight head can twist, turn a loose head by binding on the arm and a loose head can do a small amount of cheating by binding illegally but with no where near the same affect. but you have to give quinns scrum some credit, if you watch the quinns game from a few weeks ago you will see quinns had the better of the scrums until the second half when jonson went off. Give the fella some credit I think he was the best tight head in the premiership last season and when he wasnt on the field quinns suffered. but the biggest thing with a scrum is its an Eight man job when we win a scrum its not all down to the front row and when u lose a scrum ts not all down to them either eight men collectively push with great force and on a whole Ayerza is one of the best loose head in world rugby but every now and again a prop will get the better of you thats life. we lost to a better team on the day not just because Ayerza didnt bind on a couple of scrums. The touch judge does need to help the ref out on these things but if you watch Castro and cole you will see them doing exactly the same thing and no one complains when we get a penalty awarded to us.

[Bill W (2)]

Rightly or wrongly (and IMHO he was wrong) W. Barnes Esq had no sympathy with Marcos.

Why did Cockers not sub him off?

[WhitecapTiger]

Why did Cockers not sub him off?

Why not submit a Freedom of Information request to Tigers and/or Cockers Bill? Ask them, because we (royal) don't know and can't speak for Cockers

[Bill W (2)]

Why did Cockers not sub him off?

Why not submit a Freedom of Information request to Tigers and/or Cockers Bill? Ask them, because we (royal) don't know and can't speak for Cockers

Freedom of Information Act and Judicial Review regretably do not apply.

Cockers ( and I am happy to discuss it with him) felt it was best to replace Marcos only later.

Of course we cannot know whether earlier subs would have resulted in a different outcome.

Nonetheless Cockers track record (other than Castro and Cole) is too little too late!!

[Crumblies]

Bill(W) wrote ...
Of course we cannot know whether earlier subs would have resulted in a different outcome.

Nonetheless Cockers track record (other than Castro and Cole) is too little too late!!

Indeed it is Bill, and the rationale remains a mystery to most if not all of us.

[jamiewilkinson]

Posted on the Quins fourm, Johnston was getting penalised for it at the beginning of the season, but they have said that the officials have stopped penalising him as the season has gone on. So what has changed, another example of the officials not knowing how to ref the scrum?