Cockerill's future

[Crumblies]

I find the last few posts a bit of a contradiction. People were moaning that Cockers doesnt come out and say how things really are, and when he does people criticise him. As one poster put, the guy just cant win.

Were they? can you point me to these posts?

I think I and others have criticised him for a number of things, but as I recollect this is not one of them.

Still I'm sure you will remind us of where and when.

Or is this another of your posts where you make statement as fct of something you like to beleive someone else has said.

[g]

God I'm sick of hearing the injuries and WC year as an excuse for the dross thats been served up by players and coaches this season.

Fact is the players are not performing and the coaches are not performing in their collective duties. That has nothing to do with injuries and WC year every team get injuries and they have dealt with it.

[Rizzo]

Five words, "Time for some fresh eyes" me thinks. As i think its now for Cockers.

well I am sure you will find plenty on this forum willing to pull the lever...

[Will S]

I really don't understand the overall panic. We've not been playing great lately but teams have dips in form - we will come good. Results wise we are not doing too bad. We are going strong in the Prem and whilst we are out of the HC we had an awkward group where we won as many games as both Ulster and Clermont but just failed to pick up the BP's.

Losing Billy has obviously raised some unhappy voices but again I'm not overly bothered about this. I've not seen much this season from him to get massively excited over.

[Smudge]

We've not been playing great lately

That's the understatement of the year.

Don't look at our position, look at how poorly we are playing.
No, direction, leadership, game plan, flair, etc etc.
What has been achieved so far this year seems to be in spite of the coaches.
When did you ever see heads drop in a Tigers team like they did
against Ulster? The moral seem to be rock bottom, on and off the pitch.
Poor selection and use of the bench, refusing to use the quality
that is here in spades. The cream of our future wanting away.
(OK he's not everyone's favourite but a future star nonetheless)

As for the DIRECTOR of Rugby? There is NO Direction from him just the same old
excuses. He doesn't even seem to see the problem as him. (and his mate)
We could scrape along and finish in the top four but have little chance of
winning the play off again. We are in a much worse situation than we were at
last year's disappointment. And what of the future?
Who could possibly be inspired by him and look forward with anticipation
to a bright and exciting future? Not me for one.

[Isambard]

In areas of sporting excellence athletes, coaches and pundits will often talk about the need to move upwards, to kick on, to raise the bar and such like.
If this club intends to stay in the elite rugby clubs of the northern hemisphere we need management who are able to take us there. RC has done a decent job but the fact that a bunch of talented players show no interest in making such a move is the reason why I think he should be thanked and dismissed.
A fair comparison is the way the English cricket board replaced Duncan Fletcher and his assistants in order for a better coaching group to enable England to flower!( sorry)

The Leicester way of beasting in training doesn't seem to be working. The recruiting doesn't either, the bringing on of academy players is either too slow or the skill sets and mindsets of those picked for the 1st XV do not gel sufficiently for a flowing game to be played. You may like bash bash rugby all the time but it seems to cause more injuries than ever and the opposition seem to be able to work out defence far more easily.

How can any elite club be satisfied with the first half on Saturday?

How could any elite club be satisfied with the way we played in France when we were unable to try a plan B.
Why do our often excellent front five put up with the high % of hard won ball that is wasted by the decision makers from 6 outwards?

[Isambard]

In areas of sporting excellence athletes, coaches and pundits will often talk about the need to move upwards, to kick on, to raise the bar and such like.
If this club intends to stay in the elite rugby clubs of the northern hemisphere we need management who are able to take us there. RC has done a decent job but the fact that a bunch of talented players show no interest in making such a move is the reason why I think he should be thanked and dismissed.
A fair comparison is the way the English cricket board replaced Duncan Fletcher and his assistants in order for a better coaching group to enable England to flower!( sorry)

The Leicester way of beasting in training doesn't seem to be working. The recruiting doesn't either, the bringing on of academy players is either too slow or the skill sets and mindsets of those picked for the 1st XV do not gel sufficiently for a flowing game to be played. You may like bash bash rugby all the time but it seems to cause more injuries than ever and the opposition seem to be able to work out defence far more easily.

How can any elite club be satisfied with the first half on Saturday?

How could any elite club be satisfied with the way we played in France when we were unable to try a plan B.
Why do our often excellent front five put up with the high % of hard won ball that is wasted by the decision makers from 6 outwards?

[Smurphswillgetya]

I find the last few posts a bit of a contradiction. People were moaning that Cockers doesnt come out and say how things really are, and when he does people criticise him. As one poster put, the guy just cant win.

Were they? can you point me to these posts?

I think I and others have criticised him for a number of things, but as I recollect this is not one of them.

Still I'm sure you will remind us of where and when.

Or is this another of your posts where you make statement as fct of something you like to beleive someone else has said.

I will let you waste your time looking for those posts but they do exist and not just in my mind! It seems to me that the only time you post is to have a go at me! Have I done something to upset you that you have a personal vendetta against me.

[POSTIGER]

I supported Cockers for the first two years as I thought he was building towards something. Now I'm convinced we're regressing - and at an alarming rate of knots. Time to get rid.

[maxy437]

In areas of sporting excellence athletes, coaches and pundits will often talk about the need to move upwards, to kick on, to raise the bar and such like.
If this club intends to stay in the elite rugby clubs of the northern hemisphere we need management who are able to take us there. RC has done a decent job but the fact that a bunch of talented players show no interest in making such a move is the reason why I think he should be thanked and dismissed.
A fair comparison is the way the English cricket board replaced Duncan Fletcher and his assistants in order for a better coaching group to enable England to flower!( sorry)

The Leicester way of beasting in training doesn't seem to be working. The recruiting doesn't either, the bringing on of academy players is either too slow or the skill sets and mindsets of those picked for the 1st XV do not gel sufficiently for a flowing game to be played. You may like bash bash rugby all the time but it seems to cause more injuries than ever and the opposition seem to be able to work out defence far more easily.

How can any elite club be satisfied with the first half on Saturday?

How could any elite club be satisfied with the way we played in France when we were unable to try a plan B.
Why do our often excellent front five put up with the high % of hard won ball that is wasted by the decision makers from 6 outwards?

Super, accurate post. If we strive for excellence, which I believe we do, there needs to be a shake up somewhere in the coaching team. I'd suggest starting with a backs coach who, either intentionally or through lack of personal quality, doesn't coach his backs to offload and use pace to unlock defences which is the way the game has moved, rather than bish-bash-bosh.

[Mat]

I dont think RC needs to go at all I just think we need to bring in a skillfull creative mind to work with him. I would go for Meenhan ex bath coach as backs coach and then Someone above him to tell him we are goign to change the game plan a bit from the traditional Tigers way. Woodward? after Olympics

Interestingly the traditional tigers ways still works for Munster!!!!! So its not neccesarily a problem with tactics it more a problem with personnel who are not good enough! and too many games.
We have far too many journey men/ nearly me with no extra gear. Munster can flick a switch as Tigers were able to in the past. Sheeer :censored: mindedness won games we had no right to win. The over the hill Munster still do that now.
The current crop of so called Wolrd class players we have Flood, Youngs, Cole etc are just not good enough. When combined with the many journeymen then we are an a good side just not a great side we would all like.

Dont forget its 10 year since we won in europe with arguably the best English forwards of any generation. RC was not there as a manger in all those inbetween years was he.
With the exception of Toulous no team wins very often. Munster had a grt run but failed to qual for 1/4 last season and not made final for years. Leinster are still in the middle of a good run . Wasps were grt for a few years. etc


I cant see how we can expect much more to be honest at the moment than we are getting. Yes we need to bring in more creativiity and a bit more risk taking in the handling and running which is where i would bring a coach in. But would that have changed anything in Ulster or In France. The squad we have including the injured flood etc just simply do not match up top the greats of the past or the current outstanding Irish teams

We can not buy a team beacuse of the cap so RC and all other teams make decisions. Look at all the Prem teams no one has done any good in Eurpoe. Sarries the only team through but didnt look very convincing and have no second gear so cant see them winning it. If they do well it will be defence and kicking and i would rather not see that thank you.

English rugby is having problens not just Tigers. We need a new structure from RFU with new incentives to play more open less risk adverse rugby. Not sackings. For prem game I would expect a minumum of 20 Eng Qul players in the squad on match day with at least 5 under 23s in the squad. a percentage of each would have to start.I would also look to bring in like in Italy that 2 of the 3 key deciosn making positions in the backs have to be eng qual on the pitch at anyone time 9,10,15

Change the league points so that attcking is rewarded greatly with extra BP points.

Cut the number of teams so there are fewer games. Or increase the number of teams but only play teach team once in the league. alternate home and away fixtures each season (as it used to be For older heads)

Introduce a max number of game any player can play a year which includes part games.

For a short time we may need a closed shop prem for a few season to allow these changes to bed in and then open it up to promotion and relegation. Would need a sinilar structure in Champ , Ntional 1 etc
HC squads would

time the HC for a differnernt part of the season on one block after prem finishes. For a few years we woudl struggel but then with all teh expereince english players developing playign a lot then we would see a converyor belt to good performances for years to come at club and internation level.

we need to put the structure right not sack coaches.

[RWA]

Great post Matt !

Just as a "what if ?"...we get rid of Cockers, Matt O'C or both...bring someone else in. What if that doesn't work ? How long do we leave it ? It's as much down to the players as the coaches in my opinion. Where are the leaders on the pitch ? In the past we've had Corry, Kay, Back, Deacon and complimented with quality foreign players etc...wherever you looked the leaders were there. Now we have Deacs ? Do you believe that the coaches are telling the players to play like they have been ? No, neither do I. How can we not bring injuries into the equation when the side hasn't been the same from one game to the next. We're not allowed excuses though are we, we're Leicester Tigers and we're better than that - give me strength. I still think we'll be there at Twickenham - it won't be good enough for some people though will it until Cockers and/or O'Connor are sacked/leave.

[TigerCam]

I dont think RC needs to go at all I just think we need to bring in a skillfull creative mind to work with him. I would go for Meenhan ex bath coach as backs coach and then Someone above him to tell him we are goign to change the game plan a bit from the traditional Tigers way. Woodward? after Olympics

Interestingly the traditional tigers ways still works for Munster!!!!! So its not neccesarily a problem with tactics it more a problem with personnel who are not good enough! and too many games.
We have far too many journey men/ nearly me with no extra gear. Munster can flick a switch as Tigers were able to in the past. Sheeer :censored: mindedness won games we had no right to win. The over the hill Munster still do that now.
The current crop of so called Wolrd class players we have Flood, Youngs, Cole etc are just not good enough. When combined with the many journeymen then we are an a good side just not a great side we would all like.

Dont forget its 10 year since we won in europe with arguably the best English forwards of any generation. RC was not there as a manger in all those inbetween years was he.
With the exception of Toulous no team wins very often. Munster had a grt run but failed to qual for 1/4 last season and not made final for years. Leinster are still in the middle of a good run . Wasps were grt for a few years. etc


I cant see how we can expect much more to be honest at the moment than we are getting. Yes we need to bring in more creativiity and a bit more risk taking in the handling and running which is where i would bring a coach in. But would that have changed anything in Ulster or In France. The squad we have including the injured flood etc just simply do not match up top the greats of the past or the current outstanding Irish teams

We can not buy a team beacuse of the cap so RC and all other teams make decisions. Look at all the Prem teams no one has done any good in Eurpoe. Sarries the only team through but didnt look very convincing and have no second gear so cant see them winning it. If they do well it will be defence and kicking and i would rather not see that thank you.

English rugby is having problens not just Tigers. We need a new structure from RFU with new incentives to play more open less risk adverse rugby. Not sackings. For prem game I would expect a minumum of 20 Eng Qul players in the squad on match day with at least 5 under 23s in the squad. a percentage of each would have to start.I would also look to bring in like in Italy that 2 of the 3 key deciosn making positions in the backs have to be eng qual on the pitch at anyone time 9,10,15

Change the league points so that attcking is rewarded greatly with extra BP points.

Cut the number of teams so there are fewer games. Or increase the number of teams but only play teach team once in the league. alternate home and away fixtures each season (as it used to be For older heads)

Introduce a max number of game any player can play a year which includes part games.

For a short time we may need a closed shop prem for a few season to allow these changes to bed in and then open it up to promotion and relegation. Would need a sinilar structure in Champ , Ntional 1 etc
HC squads would

time the HC for a differnernt part of the season on one block after prem finishes. For a few years we woudl struggel but then with all teh expereince english players developing playign a lot then we would see a converyor belt to good performances for years to come at club and internation level.

we need to put the structure right not sack coaches.

Would a skilful creative coach be welcome? Would RC stand aside and let someone take over the head coach reigns? Loffreda is a skilful creative coach proven by his ability to take Argentina from a 'whipping boy' side into a world class side. Yet he was sacked after one season deemed to have not performed allbeit with an EDF, Prem final + HC qualification attained in his year at the Tigers. RC needs help but he says he is doing a great job. Somehow I doubt he would endure the change? I can understand his passion. It is no more or less than the Tiger supporters that pay hard cash to support the club. RC is however not bigger than the Tigers. For the Tigers to improve something has to give way and IMO that is RC. He IMO is the common denominator in the Tigers style of play and lack ability these past seasons to kick on from where Pat Howard and Marcelo Loffreda left off.

[TigerCam]

I dont think RC needs to go at all I just think we need to bring in a skillfull creative mind to work with him. I would go for Meenhan ex bath coach as backs coach and then Someone above him to tell him we are goign to change the game plan a bit from the traditional Tigers way. Woodward? after Olympics

Interestingly the traditional tigers ways still works for Munster!!!!! So its not neccesarily a problem with tactics it more a problem with personnel who are not good enough! and too many games.
We have far too many journey men/ nearly me with no extra gear. Munster can flick a switch as Tigers were able to in the past. Sheeer :censored: mindedness won games we had no right to win. The over the hill Munster still do that now.
The current crop of so called Wolrd class players we have Flood, Youngs, Cole etc are just not good enough. When combined with the many journeymen then we are an a good side just not a great side we would all like.

Dont forget its 10 year since we won in europe with arguably the best English forwards of any generation. RC was not there as a manger in all those inbetween years was he.
With the exception of Toulous no team wins very often. Munster had a grt run but failed to qual for 1/4 last season and not made final for years. Leinster are still in the middle of a good run . Wasps were grt for a few years. etc


I cant see how we can expect much more to be honest at the moment than we are getting. Yes we need to bring in more creativiity and a bit more risk taking in the handling and running which is where i would bring a coach in. But would that have changed anything in Ulster or In France. The squad we have including the injured flood etc just simply do not match up top the greats of the past or the current outstanding Irish teams

We can not buy a team beacuse of the cap so RC and all other teams make decisions. Look at all the Prem teams no one has done any good in Eurpoe. Sarries the only team through but didnt look very convincing and have no second gear so cant see them winning it. If they do well it will be defence and kicking and i would rather not see that thank you.

English rugby is having problens not just Tigers. We need a new structure from RFU with new incentives to play more open less risk adverse rugby. Not sackings. For prem game I would expect a minumum of 20 Eng Qul players in the squad on match day with at least 5 under 23s in the squad. a percentage of each would have to start.I would also look to bring in like in Italy that 2 of the 3 key deciosn making positions in the backs have to be eng qual on the pitch at anyone time 9,10,15

Change the league points so that attcking is rewarded greatly with extra BP points.

Cut the number of teams so there are fewer games. Or increase the number of teams but only play teach team once in the league. alternate home and away fixtures each season (as it used to be For older heads)

Introduce a max number of game any player can play a year which includes part games.

For a short time we may need a closed shop prem for a few season to allow these changes to bed in and then open it up to promotion and relegation. Would need a sinilar structure in Champ , Ntional 1 etc
HC squads would

time the HC for a differnernt part of the season on one block after prem finishes. For a few years we woudl struggel but then with all teh expereince english players developing playign a lot then we would see a converyor belt to good performances for years to come at club and internation level.

we need to put the structure right not sack coaches.

Would a skilful creative coach be welcome? Would RC stand aside and let someone take over the head coach reins? Loffreda is a skilful creative coach proven by his ability to take Argentina from a 'whipping boy' side into a world class side. Yet he was sacked after one season deemed to have not performed allbeit with an EDF, Prem final + HC qualification attained in his year at the Tigers. RC needs help but he says he is doing a great job. Somehow I doubt he would endure the change? I can understand his passion. It is no more or less than the Tiger supporters that pay hard cash to support the club. RC is however not bigger than the Tigers. For the Tigers to improve something has to give way and IMO that is RC. He IMO is the common denominator in the Tigers style of play and lack ability these past seasons to kick on from where Pat Howard and Marcelo Loffreda left off.

[Bill W (2)]

IMHO Cockers has no future with Tigers.

1. His vision has proved inadequate to both players and fans alike;

2. His loyalty to O'Connor though laudable is totally misplaced. The only cutting edge in the threes is the occasional "young blood" when they manage to get onto the park and Geordan who despite O'Connors coaching remains the only Tiger who understand geometry;

3. His tactics as demonstrated on the field are one dimensional. Forward dominance (fine) but do not compete at the breakdown?

4. He only plays "new blood" when there is no alternative.

A good forwards coach? Probably - although he misuses the back row. A head coach who can coordinate forward and threes, attack and defence? Alas no! A DoR who can retain and recruit players with complementary styles of play and talents? No. A Motivator who can inspire and drive - alas no longer!