England squad is announced...

[byrontiger]

I think that Ben Youngs is in the Saxons squad as a replacement for Joe Simpson (Wasps).

Why Harry in the first place though as he is certainly injured and will definitely not have enough game time ?

Why,oh,why Tim Payne just do not understand that, unless its a case of actually rating him and thinking that his cheating (pulling down scrum) was unfortunately found out by a decent French referee. Which really does beg the question - no questions.
Although Whitey has been injured I can understand his inclusion as a bench player and probably doesnt need too much game time.

[Bill W (2)]

We will be missing:

J Crane (Leicester), T Croft (Leicester), L Deacon (Leicester), L Moody (Leicester), J White (Leicester), H Ellis (Leicester), T Flood (Leicester),D Hipkiss (Leicester), G Chuter (Leicester), D Cole (Leicester), B Kay (Leicester),B Woods (Leicester), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

[Bill W (2)]

We will be missing:

J Crane (Leicester), T Croft (Leicester), L Deacon (Leicester), L Moody (Leicester), J White (Leicester), H Ellis (Leicester), T Flood (Leicester),D Hipkiss (Leicester), G Chuter (Leicester), D Cole (Leicester), B Kay (Leicester),B Woods (Leicester), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

In addition Calum Green, Sam Harrison and Will Hurrel are in the U20 squad

[Skin_and_Muscle]

Hmmm, I forgot about the Saxons when I said we weren't hit too hard...doesn't look as good now.
It is going to be tough but Leicester have shown they have an outstanding ability to win with a patchwork team. The backs won't cause too many problems during the six nations either, which is one bonus at least.

[bluntiger]

We will be missing J Crane, T Croft, L Deacon, L Moody, J White, H Ellis, T Flood, D Hipkiss, G Chuter, D Cole, B Kay, B Woods, B Youngs

Don't forget Castro with the Azzurri and most probably young Johne with Ireland A.

So, if you want to win domestic trophies, where is the incentive to develop young English/British/European talent when your squad is going to be practically halved come 6 Nations time? The GP has to be halted during international weekends.

Add to that the EPS money is equally divided amongst the GP clubs regardless of how many EPS players a particular team provides, there is a POSITIVE DISINCENTIVE to develop young English talent.

Also, does anyone else believe that allowing players into the England side on residency is devaluing the shirt. Every young player dreams of playing for their national side but do they ever dream of playing for someone elses? Hardly!

With the likes of Flutey, Hape, Hartley and before them Lipman, Vainakolo playing for England ...... You are meant to feel incredible pride the first time you pull on your national jersey and hear the national anthem. How can they?

Maybe that is why New Zealand have done so poorly over the years in the RWC with teir preponderence of South Sea Islanders.

[Will S]

I see some logic in what Johnno has done. He only gets 5 straight changes which he has made. Other changes have to be injury replacements so why make these calls now when you can quite easily get to see players in a few more games before the 6N start? Look at the props for example. Sheridan and White are both in there but both, especially Sheridan, are likely to be injured. The young props comming through (e.g. Cole and Mullen) haven't had much game time under their belts so Johnno can watch them in a few more matches and if they still impress he can drag them in.

This also goes for Ellis. Keep him in and Johnno can monitor the other scrum halves around and see who he wants to give a shot to. Personally I would rather see Ben in the Saxons getting game time than sitting on a bench for the 1st team. If Johnno is happy with his current 9's he could even replace Ellis with someone like Cole (I know the replacements are suppose to be like for like but he replaced Vickery with Ashton so the rules are obviously not watertight!).

[Ads677]

Just a thought - are EPS and Saxons games played the same weekends?

[Darc Tiger]

I bet Hartley would consider himself English.

Flutey sings the national anthem with the rest of the team, which is good to see. Shows that it does mean something to him. And his efforts for England and the Lions show a commitment to the cause.

Im happy to have them in the side. It would be disgraceful if a converts didnt sing the anthem or show a full commitment however.

[Piesy]

I am a Kiwi so excuse my ignorance but can anyone explain to me why they are only allowed to change 5 players? I don't think MJ has done a very good job, but having rules like that surely make his job and picking an in-form team alot harder? Whats wrong with picking the best players when you want them.

[bluntiger]

I am a Kiwi so excuse my ignorance but can anyone explain to me why they are only allowed to change 5 players? I don't think MJ has done a very good job, but having rules like that surely make his job and picking an in-form team alot harder? Whats wrong with picking the best players when you want them.

In most countries, the elite players are centrally contracted to their home union eg NZ, Australia, Wales, Ireland and are 'loaned' out to the provincial sides but the respective home union essentially have the say on how much and where they play. In England they are not, they are contracted by and to the clubs in England.

So the EPS system is a framework agreement between the RFU and the clubs whereby the clubs make their players available for squad training (rather than playing for their clubs) and International matches and in theory compensates their clubs for that contribution to the national side. To enable that, the rules were put in place which have proved not entirely fit for purpose.

[big john]

Bluntiger as far as i remember the EPS money is paid to all clubs but also the teams get a set amount per player picked as well so all the clubs are paid to commit to the aggrement and the clubs get more money the more players that are picked.

Also even i think Payne is not upto the job but who else is there to have at loose head?? most of the other guys are out or not match fit. So i think he has to be there is no one else.

Also on the point of who should be allowed to play for England, Would we have got past France in the 2003 world cup with out the south african Mike Catt? if the rules are there and the person shows the right level of pride and passion for the Red Rose then why not?

[Piesy]

You can say that again, that seems backward to me but any hoo! Cheers

[MurphysLaw]

He hasn't made it this time, but I don't think it will be too long before Geoff Parling makes the Saxons, perhaps ahead of Ben Kay.

We must assume that Graham Rowntree knows what he's doing when picking Payne, but it's baffling.
Perry Freshwater seems to have completely disappeared from the England scene - is he injured, or has he been rejected?

[Bill W (2)]

Bluntiger as far as i remember the EPS money is paid to all clubs but also the teams get a set amount per player picked as well so all the clubs are paid to commit to the aggrement and the clubs get more money the more players that are picked.

?

Think not. Think money is paid to PRL who distribute it to the clubs equally.