Can the Pests ever be Stopped

simon redshaw · Post by **simon redshaw** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:52 am

Like it or not, the Pests are very good at the playoff system, and that is an understatement.

Four times, they have won from not finishing top. They have never been beaten in a playoff final. Although many do agree with playoffs, it is perhaps galling that the Pests have been able to win this so much and the team finishing top has only won it once.

Each of the last six years, they have won something, and never lost a final. Yet in that time we have lost 5. They seem to have the winning mentality, we don't seem largely. Other teams though have been frustrated by Wasps. At least though we get to finals which likes of Gloucester largely don't.

Have to say it is getting more and more galling the way they always end up with something, and I cannot see that reversing at least for the foreseeable future. It also I think makes finals involving them very predictable and turns off many neutral fans.

Its creditable that they won this final after the position they were after six games, but that they won it again does not bode well for selling the game when you have that predictability.

TTRITH · Post by **TTRITH** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:58 am

I think someone i was at the game with yesterday hit the nail on the head, 'they have got the play-offs sussed' they know what to do and how to do it. Why, because they have that coaching set-up which is very much together.

However, how can we turn out a performance in the edf semi and compare it to the week after, or even yesterdays first half?

We need more coaches, and coaches doing their own jobs.

Phil B · Post by **Phil B** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:59 am

The difference between the sides is small, in my view. The players are largely of equal ability (in aggregate)and the difference is in belief, cohesion, preparation etc. Is it hardly surprising that we could not perform with all of the negativity regarding the manager, the backroom staff etc etc?

I am not surprised, personally. But the "fix" is relatively straightforward - we have the players, a great Club, great tradition etc. Just need the glue back to stick it all together into one beautiful happy machine.

EssexTiger · Post by **EssexTiger** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:21 am

Count the breaks Wasps made, the turn overs we conceded and I think it indicates a much better team.
Maybe only at this stage of the season but thats all that counts now.

Their coaching staff nearly always out think ours on the important occasions. Its no wonder they will front the Lions setup.

We have a Staff that are still learning the business, Marcello was a part time amateur coach and needs time.
Does Cocky think except with his heart?

Look also at how few of our players feature in international vests.

We also desparately need a good back up 10 and 12.
Also a kicker who is reliable, that was a major difference yesterday as well.

Too many good players have left us(or are leaving).
Jennings, Hamilton, Cabbage, Cornwell, Humpheries, Murphy et al. That doesn't exactly indicate a squad at one with itself.

BUT what other team can have been to two finals and some think have had a poor season!

Mid Lander · Post by **Mid Lander** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:56 am

Wasps rely on a different motivation: that is to hate and beat us.

Whereas I think we rely on just winning for ourselves rather than beating them...

They know that underdogs are the most dangerous team in the world amd they thrive on it.

Johnno, Garf... was so unforgiving and :censored: minded it didn't matter whether they were faves or not, they just wanted to destroy the opposition.

Plus, I think Lol just had had enough of Jonno towards the end and was as pumped as he could be (05).

I admire them in a sick sort of way...

tigermad · Post by **tigermad** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:59 am

I have to agree with Simon as I have watched a number of finals in the last couple of years and London Wasps clearly do their homework. Yesterday was a prime example as they were on the money from minute 1 and Leicester had it all to do in the second half. Where was that explosive energy from the Gloucester game last May when we exploded into life and never looked back? Clearly other teams have moved on and there is not much to choose between the top 5 or 6 in the GP. But it would be really nice to go to a final knowing that Leicester would be on the money from minute 1.

Cliffeclimber · Post by **Cliffeclimber** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:14 am

Yesterday's game was too close to call even for the bookies. The strengths and weaknesses of the players on each side cancelled out any clear advantage.

The game turned on tiny incidents, with players reacting a split second quicker than their opponents, which is what sport is all about.

What did make a big difference, was the Insects tacticss. How unfortunate that they had to lose all their props! But also, how clever of them to play so that they didn't have too many scrums against them.

Gamesmanship? That's the name of winning cup finals.

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:25 am

They had superior speed and more invention in the backs. How many times did they side step and miss being tackled? Our players are too predictable, slow (except TV) and unimaginative.

We need an Austin back at the centre of things!

Gate · Post by **Gate** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:31 am

Call me a red white and green specs-wearer if you like, but I have a small feeling that they might have it rather harder next season. Depending on what their Heineken Cup pool lookes like, I can see them getting off to a start that's too poor to pull back from, going out in pool stages again, and finishing 8 or 9 points outside the playoff places and quite possibly not qualifying for the HC. And then their financial position might see them losing some of their quality players.

What it comes down to is a combination of their usually poor start to the season, international calls, and the fact that their cover for those international calls is so thin, and when set against losing Cipriani until Christmas (probably), all it would take is a bit of bad luck with further injuries, and they could have a real tough time of it.

The Cat · Post by **The Cat** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:12 am

I don't think you can call it boring when Wasps win something every year and always win any final they're in .......... did we call it boring between 1999 and 2002 ? Let's not be hypocritical .

All these things come in cycles , Bath used to dominate , then the Tigers , now Wasps . It's up to the other teams to improve , challenge and finally to win .

Plus , of course , before the mid 90's , Wasps had won 1 trophy , the League title in 1989-90 ( I'm excluding mickey mouse trophies like the Middlesex 7's ). Then a certain Mr Dallaglio arrives at the club , takes the captaincy and leads them to 11 trophies in 12 seasons .

It will be interesting to see what happens now he has gone . Without his leadership and strength of personality on the pitch , will Wasps revert to their former ways ?

Yelphere · Post by **Yelphere** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:21 am

Read this in todays Sunday Times.

http://tinyurl.com/6eg76j

Although I think Mr Barnes's views are usually biased against Tigers, I agree with his assessment of the current Tigers team - as I think do many Tigers supporters that have posted their views already on this forum.

Luke · Post by **Luke** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:08 pm

Pete wrote:They had superior speed and more invention in the backs. How many times did they side step and miss being tackled? Our players are too predictable, slow (except TV) and unimaginative.

Pete, I agree. Their backs were pacy, quick-footed and made some great breaks. I don't want to be too negative, but what moves are our backs practising in training? Aside from popping up the inside ball and kicking long for TV, we appear to have little of any invention. After a few phases the backs become disorganised, flat and resort to just taking it into the tackle. Why did we only start to offload in the tackle when it was too late?

Big Dai · Post by **Big Dai** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:45 pm

Like it or not by the only yardstick that means anything at all, the league table, Wasps are the second best side on the country over the whole season.

We got to the final by the back door and as possible the fourth best side, on a par with Sale, Quins and Irish deserved what we got.

Our team, once full of local stubborn dogged togetherness is now a sad reflection of what it was. We are still amateurs in a profeesional era. Out thought, out gunned, out muscled, out manouvred far too often. With the current coaching set up I don't see this changing rapidly.

I predict another bumpy ride for us next season with the Wasps winning yet more glory as Argentinian grunt fails once more to skill and flair.

Tigerbeat · Post by **Tigerbeat** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:57 pm

Cliffeclimber wrote:Yesterday's game was too close to call even for the bookies. The strengths and weaknesses of the players on each side cancelled out any clear advantage.

The game turned on tiny incidents, with players reacting a split second quicker than their opponents, which is what sport is all about.

What did make a big difference, was the Insects tacticss. How unfortunate that they had to lose all their props! But also, how clever of them to play so that they didn't have too many scrums against them.

Gamesmanship? That's the name of winning cup finals.

I said to my mates before kick off,that the game would go to uncontested scrums after 55 minutes.
Vickery was not match fit and that the props on the bench were not fully fit.
Wasps chose their moment to call for unconteseted scrums and the game was made more difficult to win.

Someting has to be done - increase the bench to 8 players, which must include 3 front row players?

At the end of the day, Wasps played a better game and got more points. Tigers can hold their heads up high.
Congratulations to Wasps.

We will be back............that I am sure!!!!

Gray · Post by **Gray** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:21 pm

Big Dai wrote:........

Our team, once full of local stubborn dogged togetherness is now a sad reflection of what it was. We are still amateurs in a profeesional era. Out thought, out gunned, out muscled, out manouvred far too often. With the current coaching set up I don't see this changing rapidly.

I predict another bumpy ride for us next season with the Wasps winning yet more glory as Argentinian grunt fails once more to skill and flair.

I sometimes get the impression that some of our "bigger name" signings don't put quite as much heart and soul into playing for us than some of the more local and/or those players who've been here for years.
Some players know that if playing for the Tigers doesn't work out, they'll be offered a lucrative contract with another club. The Tigers ethos doesn't seem to permeate into them.