The Future for Tigers

simon redshaw · Post by **simon redshaw** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:04 pm

Despite the optimism of some on this forum, after these last two games and in comparison with other teams in the Premiership like Gloucester and Wasps, I am very worried about our future in terms of winning anything.

I said before the season that we had not made the signings in the backs to be able to challenge for The Premiership, and already that is looking ominously true. Paul Burke is never going to be the back-up fly-half we need.

Also, constant tinkering and not putting things right by Pat, injuries etc, lack of confidence and a sense of prupose and direction by the players etc has lead to a less then convincing start to the season.

Already someone on the unoffy is calling for Pat to go. I have nothing against Pat but I have this concern that Tigers will never get back to the level they were in 2002 under the current coaching set-up. Only a higher profile and more experienced and get-up and go coach will lead Tigers back to their former glory. Until the Tigers board sees that, we will will continue to flounder from one season to another, never progressing much.

Pat will probably eventually leave anyway and Tigers need to have a quality replacement in place before too long has passed.

On Saturday, we were clueless for much of the second half and there seems little sign of us going in the right direction. We keep on hearing of players meetings, things will improve next week, etc..., but very little, if anything changes in the next game!!

simon redshaw · Post by **simon redshaw** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:07 pm

Apologies to anyone of the offy about saying of calling for Pat to go, it was on the unoffy. My typing error!! :oops: :oops:

salcombe bob · Post by **salcombe bob** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:26 pm

simon, I tend to agree but rarely see Tigers live unless it is Wuss away and then we tend to be without the Internationals. However, we certainly don't seem to dominate like we did, and never seem to be linked with new top class players. Instead we get the Paul Burkes of this world. I think we have too many who are good but not really good.

boondock · Post by **boondock** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:36 pm

i made a similar point after the premiership final, but it seems to me too many on here still think they are watching the tigers of 5 years ago, winning everything in sight. tigers have no divine right to win anything but some fans seem to expect it - we all our clubs to win things but many of you seem to expect that.

frankly if you continue to expect such things you are in for long periods of disappointment. tigers are a big club with some good players but you are not champions - elect, tigers are nothing more than contenders. tigers cannot bask in the glow of their golden age forever.

an outsiders view perhaps, but i think it has some merit.

Phil B · Post by **Phil B** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:45 pm

Tigers are fast becoming a mood side, I think. When we are in it then we take some stopping - and when we are not, we take some starting.

Saturday we never looked like we were going to finish them off and I put that down to not being in the mood. Aggression was 60% of that I saw against Sale.

Pure speculation, of course. After all what do I know. I hope I am wrong.

Bruce Hornby-Trainset · Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:54 pm

There are two or three threads that have all seemed to have converged on a mainly doom and gloom theme, with all kinds of advice on departures, fly halves, no.9's etc. I must admit when I saw the line up on Saturday (I DID go to the game afore any one has a snipe) my heart sank - it didn't look a strong team. When Gloucester ran on, they looked HUGE compared to Tigers. The first half, however, turned out to be a pleasant surprise.

In the second half, Gloucester's forwards decided to compete, and their sheer power was what brought them their rewards. They didn't deserve to win overall, but Tigers did not have the depth to maintain that narrow margin.

But the main thought that crossed my mind before the start was that, here we are, third match of the season, but with an injury list that you might expect in the last week before Christmas. It is simply appalling! Somebody can do the sums for me, but I expect we could field most of a very good team purely from the crock's list! Jonathon Davies has raised this subject in the past - is the Rugby Union approach to training, particularly contact training simply putting too much physical strain on the players, and is also detracting from good skills and tactical developments? Davies cites Rugby League as having a far better balance in respect of skills versus contact - and Rugby League is not exactly a game for pansies! I think he has a valid point

Anyone agree? Violently disagree?

(Ellis, Lloyd, Kay, Tuilagi (times two?), Croft, Jennings, Moreno, anyone want to add to the list?)

Pellsey · Post by **Pellsey** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:04 pm

Simon, it's far too early to say... after three games!!

If, by Christmas, we are still mid-table and not doing well in the Heineken, then that's time to worry.

stevetelcom2000 · Post by **stevetelcom2000** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:08 pm

salcombe bob wrote:simon, I tend to agree but rarely see Tigers live unless it is Wuss away and then we tend to be without the Internationals. However, we certainly don't seem to dominate like we did, and never seem to be linked with new top class players. Instead we get the Paul Burkes of this world. I think we have too many who are good but not really good.

As I've said on another thread. Paul left the European Champions to come and play for a team that havent won anything in 4 years. So it could be said in his defence it could be said that it was a backward move for him carear wise. The arrogance of some of the posters on here is staggering. Who else better to source your players, then the best team in Europe. BTW I do tend to see Tigers live despite being a Munster fan. I will be there again tonight watching the development game.

salcombe bob · Post by **salcombe bob** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:46 pm

well steve i wouldn't call it arrogance, it is merely an opinion and it is possible it is a disadvantage not to attend regularly. However, results and reports speak for themselves and Tigers do seem to follow the trend of the way they played in the Final last may, i was there, and Wuss away when i was there again. We are not the team we were and the overall quality of the backs in particular worry me. Some of the forwards bother me too like Hamilton and Cullen, are they really top notch?
As for Paul Burke surely he was 3rd choice at his old club? It is no good grumbling on here about pessimism or optimism, facts speak for themselves and we have no signs of improving our away record this season.

Finally, can you really imagine other clubs being really worried about our backs for example?

[/b]

stevetelcom2000 · Post by **stevetelcom2000** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:02 pm

salcombe bob wrote:As for Paul Burke surely he was 3rd choice at his old club? It is no good grumbling on here about pessimism or optimism, facts speak for themselves and we have no signs of improving our away record this season.

Finally, can you really imagine other clubs being really worried about our backs for example? [/b]

Yes he was 3rd choice at Munster. & no I cant see anyone being worried about most of Leicesters backs. But there is a dilema here. (1) Tigers can only work within the salary cap. (2) They already lose lots of players due to International games. So really dont need more. (3) They already struggle with the ammount of foriegn players (gibbo on Saturday). So dont need more. (4) It is difficult to get good quality players to come and sit on the bench. (5) They have a good development programme that brings players through, who will need some game time of some description. All these problems/factors need to be considered when recruiting new players. There is a similar situation at Munster when it comes to picking up new players. It is a difficult balancing act for clubs to pick up players for the season, when injurys, International call-ups, loss of form or confidence etc can wreak havoc with the best laid plans.

g · Post by g » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:14 pm

Gloucester don't seem to have a problem do they. They have an injury list as long as ours they have kids who are playing as if they have been playing for ever. If Glaws kids are good enough and if Tigers have such a good academy then why aren't we getting as many good kids coming through like Glaws have.

I think the answer is that Dean Ryan aint afraid to play them and they are coached better.

And at this rate if Tigers do continue to perform how they are doing then they won't be losing any of their internationals.

Anthony · Post by **Anthony** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:22 pm

boondock wrote:i made a similar point after the premiership final, but it seems to me too many on here still think they are watching the tigers of 5 years ago, winning everything in sight. tigers have no divine right to win anything but some fans seem to expect it - we all our clubs to win things but many of you seem to expect that.

frankly if you continue to expect such things you are in for long periods of disappointment. tigers are a big club with some good players but you are not champions - elect, tigers are nothing more than contenders. tigers cannot bask in the glow of their golden age forever.

an outsiders view perhaps, but i think it has some merit.

Boondock you are simply, completly and utterly correct. We have no divine right to win anything and I for one enjoy the competition aspect of the game. Yes we may have the odd bad game, but a 27-27 draw is not the end of the world. We've played three games, that's all, let not get into negative mode straight away the season is yet young.

:D

nursy · Post by **nursy** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:31 pm

sentimentality is the problem. the choices of team selection are poor. We continue to play with a fly half that blows warmish to very cold. The forwards continue to put in performance after performance and see promising leads blown away by erratic and nonsensicle play in the backs. Glouster on saturday did not miss a tackle (including the washing lines) compared to the 15-20 let through by our back line. We have continued to sign world class forwards and forgotten the back line. Gibson is cruishal to the organisation of defence but even he can't make the tackles missed in the fly half channel. The blame lies within this pivitol position and needs rectification as soon as!! the youngsters on saturday played well but were let down. Bring Vesty to number 10 and play Rabini inside, forget goal kicking and stop giving away the silly penalties.
the only reason we won't win anything is the fact we keep GIVING it away

tigerman · Post by **tigerman** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:41 pm

well to me we have two items of agenda, 1) the team are under performing 2) will Pat be here next season?

adamv6 · Post by **adamv6** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:43 pm

Wow, the third week of the GP and people are already shouting "of with his head" :(

I love this forum it fantastic :!:

We have a big injury list at the moment, and yes, it is hurting us.

For everybody who slates Moody, Kay, White, Ellis, Ollie Smith, please think before you talk.

They are all class players, that when we do not have them available, are sorely missed.

I hinted at the situation with Azersa and Gibson not being able to play in the same side was a farce, and from everybody I have spoken too, Gibson would have made a huge difference in the centre.

I understand the need for a rotation system in the squad, but I feel strongly that players with no international duties should play a larger percentage of the games than the others (the RFU agreement only allows the England internationals to play a certain number anyway).

Pat needs to redress his rotation policy quickly.

Far too early to start a mass panic about another failed season.