Declaration Of War?

sammy · Post by **sammy** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:33 pm

IsraeliTiger wrote:Actually sammy, it was UN land, and the UN decided to give the land for the formation of a Jewish state. I'll try and explain it on a smaller scale:

I own a house. You live in the house, until one day I decide to give the house to Kinoulton. I in this case am the UN, you, the Palestinian people, and Kinoulton the Jewish people. Its my house, I'm letting you stay there because I have no reason for you to not stay there. However for whatever reason, I choose to give the house to someone else to own. Its my house, therefore it is my right to do so if I wish.

Apologies. My bad. Cheers for explaining it IT, appreciate it. Hope your still safe.

Sim, Israel are merely doing what the US and UK have done. They're attacking a country to stop terrorism. I don't agree with it, but its the way of the world at the moment.

Sim · Post by **Sim** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:46 pm

Iain you've miss understood what im saying. Ok it was probably a bit harsh but my view was simply to say 20KM is a lot firther away than many Lebonaese have been. and i am not tarring the whole of Israil i am critisising there governemnt and the way they have dealt with it. When i said Israeal are a disgrace i meant the government.

Israeli its nothing personnal at all and i didn't mean to get at you but the situation frustrates me (not hat it doesn't frustrate you) but i just find it very annoying that they are attacking innocent people, at least when we attack countries we get intelligence correct and there is very little collateral damage, i don't mean to be rude, inconsiderate or harsh towards you, of course 20K is very close but at that moment i posted i had just been watching News 24 and there had been a peace about how many Lebonese civiliians had been injured or killed and my emotions are high. I apologise for any rude words.

I would also like to say that people shouldn't take what someone says as literraly or are we going to have to speel everything out so to not offend, it feels like people are very pedantic on here!!!

Iain · Post by **Iain** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:15 am

Sim wrote: at least when we attack countries we get intelligence correct and there is very little collateral damage

Without wishing to detract too much from the situation discussed in this thread are you having a laugh??? Was the whole weapons of mass destruction fiasco in Iraq something that COMPLETELY passed you by.

And no I don't think I misunderstood you at all. At a time when someone is posting with their concerns about the city they are living in getting bombed, a post to the tune of "well Israel deserves it" or "stop going on, 20km isn't that close" is massively insensitive. Your desire to stand on a political soapbox isn't always well placed I'm afraid Sim. Fully aware you study Politics Sim, I did so myself at A level and beyond, but I have lived to learn that people don't want to hear a political viewpoint at every given opportunity.

IsraeliTiger · Post by **IsraeliTiger** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:46 am

Its ok Iain, Sim has apologised, all is well.

Sim · Post by **Sim** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:39 pm

I didn't mean that at all Iain and so i do think you misunderstood what i said, me and Israeli have spoken on Pm and i think we both understand what we're getting at and are in agreement, in fact it was a very interesting little convo.

I didn't say in any words that Israel deserved to be bombed at all and thats a very insensitive thing to say about me actually. I'm not going to go into the whole thing that me and Israeli discussed but i realise at first it was a little insensitive and maybe i didn't explain totally what i meant but i didnn't mean anything to the words that you are saying.

IsraeliTiger · Post by **IsraeliTiger** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:16 am

This one entitled, why I hate the BBC:

http://tinyurl.com/nlu83
^wow, what great Lebanese civilians. Why don't Israel do anything like that?.......

http://tinyurl.com/naw5f
No major headlines carried anything about this. Also, I couldn't find anything, but two of Israel's major papers had adverts from Southern/Central families offering to take in families from the north. But that doesn't play with what the BBC want people to think of Israel.

simon redshaw · Post by **simon redshaw** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:19 am

I know the BBC can be very biased in their reporting. It becomes a propoganda thing.

Sorry if this sounds flippant, but don't worry, Condoleeza's here to save the day or not!

Kinoulton · Post by **Kinoulton** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

I've made a mental note to slap myself if I hear myself saying "Well the Israeli response has been disproportionate."

What would be proportionate if these lethal rockets were falling, not in Israel, but in London, Leicester, Liverpool.

What would we do? Carry our dead to the morgue and send a stern letter to those responsible? Would we hell. We'd mobilise all our armed forces.

Let's not forget one thing. Israel's enemy have issued the delightful statement "If all the Jews would settle in Israel we wouldn't have to go all over the World to kill them."

Hardly ideal neighbours. And if Israel decide to try to obliterate them then I think it's extremely brave of Britain's chattering classes to sit in their comfy homes, reading their Independent newspaper and saying "Ooo those naughty Israeli's have killed some civilians".

What do Hezbollah's rockets do, exactly? Pick out tanks?

simon redshaw · Post by **simon redshaw** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:45 am

A very good argument there Kin. Little more that I can add.

I suppose because of BBC reporting etc, we are told that Israel are the aggressors and the evil ones and little attention is paid to the crimes of Hezbollah. I am not a huge fan of Israel but the reporting should be more balanced. And we would react similiarly to the Israelis as you say if our cities were being attacked by rockets.

I don't know how much Hezbollah actually represent Arab opinion. However, there will be always be some Arab hatred of Israel and vice versa. However, I can say for certain that many Arabs hate America just as much if not more.

I agree with your point about statements from Israel's enemy. Also, Iran came out with a "lovely statement" to the effect that Israel was signing its own warrant for oblivion.

BTW, I actually read the Independent, maybe I shouldn't

, have a reasonable but not hugely expensive home (£190,000) and read that because I don't like the gutter press.

Otherwise, I am not too bad a person! :D :D

sammy · Post by **sammy** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:42 am

Kinoulton wrote:I've made a mental note to slap myself if I hear myself saying "Well the Israeli response has been disproportionate."

What would be proportionate if these lethal rockets were falling, not in Israel, but in London, Leicester, Liverpool.

What would we do? Carry our dead to the morgue and send a stern letter to those responsible? Would we hell. We'd mobilise all our armed forces.

Let's not forget one thing. Israel's enemy have issued the delightful statement "If all the Jews would settle in Israel we wouldn't have to go all over the World to kill them."

Hardly ideal neighbours. And if Israel decide to try to obliterate them then I think it's extremely brave of Britain's chattering classes to sit in their comfy homes, reading their Independent newspaper and saying "Ooo those naughty Israeli's have killed some civilians".

What do Hezbollah's rockets do, exactly? Pick out tanks?

The response has been hugely disproportionate. Only a few Israeli civillians have died so far. Hezbollah are firing innaccurate rockets into highly populated areas. They've fired thousands, very few have died. This is not exactly high-technology warfare. Kinny, Hezbollah's rockets don't pick out tanks, they pick out nothing because most go miles astray.

I'll say it again, Israel are merely replicating the actions of the west following 9/11 and 7/7. I disagreed with that action and I'll disagree with this. Israel are murdering, 'terrorising' if you will, many more citizens. Just because they are a nation it doesn't mean they are not terrorists. They have far more accurate high-tech firepower yet they are slaughtering innocent Lebanese people. Do the Israeli rockets pick out terrorists Kinny? No, emphatically.

A final reminder. Israel are supposedly fighting Hezbollah. Not Lebanon. Kill the terrorists, fine. Just don't kill innocent Lebanese citizens.

Kinny, the situation is far more complex than you describe.

Kinoulton · Post by **Kinoulton** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:14 am

Well it's more complicated than I described because I ain't got unlimited time, and that's what you'd need!

But consider this. The Lebanese PM, Fuad Saniora is a Sunni, fiercely opposed to the Shiite terrorists that call themselves Hezbollah and he is also very anti-Syrian.

Yet Hezbollah continue to operate in his country and are funded by Syria, who he hates, and another Shiite state, Iran.

Major players in the region, such as Egypt, Jordan and Saudi are also very much against Hezbollah and in fact any form of Shiite extremism.

So much so that after a little bit of head scratching they've had to admit that they have no appetite whatsoever to join in a war against Israel and if push comes to shove, they may have to actually support Israel in their war against Hezbollah.

Not a position they ever thought they would come to in a million years.

And of course the instability doesn't stop there, because whilst the media is focused on the Lebanon and Israel, it turns a blind eye to the fact that Hezbollah continues to slaughter Sunni civilains in Iraq.

That isn't the whole picture either, but it is sufficient to demonstrate that the negotiating table is going to be a very strange place. I doubt if you'll ever get many of the factions to the table at all.

So where next for Israel when the bombs are coming in? I agree with you entirely that I wouldn't have done it their way, I'm just not too sure how many ways there are.

sammy · Post by **sammy** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:30 pm

Possibly not killing several UN officials!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 217176.stm

Agreed Kinoulton, the situation is incredibly complex and diplomacy would give even the most hardened diplomat a migraine.

Still, I'd disagree with your assertion that Israel are taking the best option available to them. Perhaps Lebanon would have been more inclined to aid Israel in wiping out Hezbollah if they were aware that the current situation was avoidable? I refuse to accept that a massive military operation is necessary.

Rizzo · Post by **Rizzo** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:49 pm

the sad thing is that - like our Israeli Tiger - there are so many caught up in this terrible violence - from both sides...

on our BonJovi message board we've got a thread about this conflict and violence, and two of our regular board users are posting on it to keep us updated - one is from Haifa, one is from just outside Beirut. They discuss freely with each other - and the rest of us - without dissent, argument or insults. Both agree they hate the violence done in the name of their country and their people, both agree they are frightened and wish only to live in peace with their families and friends. I pray and hope daily that somehow diplomacy and negotations can be the way forward, so that people like IT (on this board) Francie and Roulah on the Jovi board - and all their families and friends can have what we take so much for granted.

IsraeliTiger · Post by **IsraeliTiger** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:21 pm

Sammy, I'm intrigued, why do you feel that UN officials lives are more important than ordinary civilians?

And Lebanon have had what, five years to take out Hezbollah? Instead they put them in Cabinet. Next time when we're talking about how to destroy Al-Qaeda, put your proposal up of putting them in the British Cabinet. It'll go down great I'm sure.

Kinoulton · Post by **Kinoulton** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:17 am

I think the point that Sammy is making, perhaps, is that there has been a strong suggestion that Israel attacked the UN position deliberately.

I don't know whether they did or not, but from the point of view Israel's assertion that they only wish to take out Hezbollah and not harm civilians, this incident represents good propaganda for anyone who is against Israel's position.

I don't mean to flippant, but perhaps it's a compliment to the Isaeli military that we find it hard to believe they would make such a gaff.

The US military, on the other hand, could bomb the entire UN headquarters, call it an accident, and we'd believe them.