Guess your England RWC squad of 31

[darganj]

I am judging my opinion of Farrell from the moment I first saw him play up until the present day- he is rubbish. My opinion.

I am also judging my opinion of Burgess from the 1st time I saw him play Union up until the present day- he is rubbish. My opinion.

. How can you argue that Farrell isn't one of the best defensive and goal kicking 10s in the world?

[ellis9]

If you want a fly half that only offers a high conversion rate then he is your man but if like me you want your fly half to attack the gain line, have various skills to ensue they get the ball out wide and run the game then he should be no where near the fly half position!

[h's dad]

Mods there is no room for insults such as muppet or insane on this forum. Elveryone should be allowed to express an opinion.

Even if the opinion expressed is that certain individuals are rubbish? Not sure which is the greater insult. How about some consistency?
http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Ellis_E._Williams

[4071]

I am judging my opinion of Farrell from the moment I first saw him play up until the present day- he is rubbish. My opinion.

I am also judging my opinion of Burgess from the 1st time I saw him play Union up until the present day- he is rubbish. My opinion.

Putting 'My opinion' at the end does not give you a get-out. Not all opinions have the same weight and value. Without any basis in fact (or indeed reality) an opinion is essentially worthless.

If I were to say:
"The ancient Greeks invented interstellar travel. My opinion."
the suffix does not mean that the utter nonsense preceding it should pass without further comment.

I would simply be wrong, regardless of whether it was 'my opinion' or not. And when challenged on it, I shouldn't expect to get away with saying 'Well, it's just my opinion. You have yours and I have mine'. When making a firm statement of fact like that, I should have to back it up.

And in this case you really need to provide more than a statement of your opinion. Not least because your opinion goes contrary to all available evidence.



Basically, your opinion is wrong.

[ellis9]

Look I have no problem in people disagreeing with me but that statement is a bit ridiculous. Obviously some things are facts so cannot be viewed as an opinion. The sky is blue- fact not opinion. The world is round- fact not opinion. Leicester Tigers are the most successful English club- fact not opinion.

If you look at my earlier post, I explained why I think Farrell is rubbish but as you have failed to recognise it I'll say it again. Farrell offers only a kicking game. If you want that from a fly half then fine but I want a fly half who can run the game and make things happen and have various skills on his armoury to make sure they can get the ball out wide, make things happen and mix it up. Farrell does not offer this, so therefore, I think he is rubbish.

To put it simply. If you buy a product and when you use it, it does not do what you want it to, you would say it's rubbish and either throw it away or put it away and never it again.

[4071]

Look I have no problem in people disagreeing with me but that statement is a bit ridiculous. Obviously some things are facts so cannot be viewed as an opinion. The sky is blue- fact not opinion. The world is round- fact not opinion. Leicester Tigers are the most successful English club- fact not opinion.

If you look at my earlier post, I explained why I think Farrell is rubbish but as you have failed to recognise it I'll say it again. Farrell offers only a kicking game. If you want that from a fly half then fine but I want a fly half who can run the game and make things happen and have various skills on his armoury to make sure they can get the ball out wide, make things happen and mix it up. Farrell does not offer this, so therefore, I think he is rubbish.

To put it simply. If you buy a product and when you use it, it does not do what you want it to, you would say it's rubbish and either throw it away or put it away and never it again.

If you buy a laptop and use it to wash your car, it won't do what you want it to. It doesn't mean that it's rubbish, it just means that you should have bought a sponge.

Farrell does what he does very well. And it's not as if he has no running game and no playmaking skills. There are FHs who do that better - Ford, Cipriani, Burns, Slade - but he wasn't exactly an immobile kicker when he was a try-scoring MOTM in the Premiership final.

If you want a reliable kicking option, a solid defender, a decent running threat and a competent playmaker than you'll get that in Farrell. If you want someone to take the ball to the gainline, make breaks and put runners through gaps, then there are better FHs out there. Which does not - by any stretch of the imagination - make Farrell rubbish.



But if you think that being extremely good at several of the core skills of an international FH makes Farrell rubbish, what's your problem with Burgess? Is it that he's not a front-line lineout option and you'd like your blindside to be a lineout option, therefore he's rubbish?

[ellis9]

My point on Farrell is the same with any fly half. They should be able to do all of those things I mentioned. Just being a good defender and good goal kicker does not in my opinion, make you a good fly half as you have too many restrictions in your game.

Sam Burgess for his size and pace does not make enough yards and has not looked like worrying defences. He also needs to learn about the breakdown and get more turnovers. There is time for him to improve but he is nowhere near international level and certainly shouldn't be in a World Cup squad.

[4071]

Sam Burgess for his size and pace does not make enough yards and has not looked like worrying defences. He also needs to learn about the breakdown and get more turnovers.

Uh... wut?

Burgess's stats from his last six starts at blindside:

Tries: 2
Carries: 57
Metres: 224 (averaging 37m per game)
Defenders beaten: 9

And did I mention his five turnovers won in a single match? His first start in the back row, in fact!

Compare to Leicester's blindsides over the last six matches (Slater, Parling and Gibson)
Tries: 0
Carries: 35
Metres: 80 (averaging 13m per game)
Defenders beaten: 3

Or compare to his opposite numbers in each of those six games:
Tries: 0
Carries: 30
Metres: 87 (averaging 14.5m per game)
Defenders beaten: 6


He's a huge carrier!

Even in the centres, where he's less effective. Over his last six starts there, he made 54 carries for 152m, beating 19 defenders.

If you're going to criticise one aspect of his performances in Union, then you're really on a loser going after his ball-carrying. He busts tackles and makes ground for fun.

[ellis9]

Oh ok, so the World Cup squad is being picked based on the last 6 games of the season?!

Want to tell me his stats for the whole season?

[4071]

Oh ok, so the World Cup squad is being picked based on the last 6 games of the season?!

Want to tell me his stats for the whole season?

In terms of goalpost shifting, that's world class. Well done.

[ellis9]

Thanks

You can't give me anything previous to those last 6 games so once again you criticise me! Signs of a losing/lost argument.

How have I moved the goalposts?

[Soggypitch]

I often hear people call players rubbish - rugby players, tennis players (Murray, Henman), cricketers (Cooke etc).

I always reflect when I hear this on how they would feel if the player in question was their son....

I'm proud of my eldest son for playing first team rugby for a local Leics team last season, is he as good as Farrell or Burgess - obviously not!!

To call quality sportsmen "rubbish" is simply crass and/or inarticulate. Yes we all have our preferences and that debate is always interesting and fun, some are better than others, but rubbish certainly not!!

[jgriffin]

I often hear people call players rubbish - rugby players, tennis players (Murray, Henman), cricketers (Cooke etc).

I always reflect when I hear this on how they would feel if the player in question was their son....

I'm proud of my eldest son for playing first team rugby for a local Leics team last season, is he as good as Farrell or Burgess - obviously not!!

To call quality sportsmen "rubbish" is simply crass and/or inarticulate. Yes we all have our preferences and that debate is always interesting and fun, some are better than others, but rubbish certainly not!!

Actually it is more fun to watch ellis9 and 4071 go head-to-head. 4071 is rapidly mutating into the Dave Angel/BJ variety (might even be one of those Olympian champions/bores/AntiChrists - delete as appropriate for you).

[Soggypitch]

I often hear people call players rubbish - rugby players, tennis players (Murray, Henman), cricketers (Cooke etc).

I always reflect when I hear this on how they would feel if the player in question was their son....

I'm proud of my eldest son for playing first team rugby for a local Leics team last season, is he as good as Farrell or Burgess - obviously not!!

To call quality sportsmen "rubbish" is simply crass and/or inarticulate. Yes we all have our preferences and that debate is always interesting and fun, some are better than others, but rubbish certainly not!!

Actually it is more fun to watch ellis9 and 4071 go head-to-head. 4071 is rapidly mutating into the Dave Angel/BJ variety (might even be one of those Olympian champions/bores/AntiChrists - delete as appropriate for you).

Yes but it's a complete mis-match JG. ellis9 simply spouts subjective opinions and 4071 backs his up with facts.

It's like watching a heavy weight take on a fly weight - no contest!!

[jgriffin]

I was referring to the quasi-divine tone.