THE DECIDER - ENGLAND V AUSTRALIA - 16th July 2022

[Rugbygramps]

If you listen to EJ speaking on last weeks Rugby Pod to Uge Monye he explains that the team he picked last week was because of how the ground plays.

He gave a clear explanation of why he was starting JVP and it was due to his attributes and the speed of the ground.

He stated he wanted Care to control the end where the bigger risk was.

Whilst I think JVP was fantastic for his first start, I think EJ has already made the decision.

Let’s also not forget DC has been on fire for Quinn’s both in the try’s and the cards ; and this is his last chance saloon - playing for his place in the squad for the World Cup….

Anything Jones says has to be taken with a pinch of salt I’m afraid. No issues with Cares ability but to not pick jvp after last week’s performance and the cite the speed of the ground as a reason is ridiculous.

With regard to the Care/Lenny debate, we don’t know whether Youngs was not selected, or he requested not to tour.
As Jones will persist with Smith come hell or high water I have a feeling that the 2 of the 3 scrum halfs will be Care, JVP, and one of Randall, Mitchell or Quirke.

I think it’s still any 3 from 6. Form and injury next season should be the deciding factor but you never can tell with Eddie. Maybe he’ll go left field and select Spencer. Mitchell’s your best 9 for me. He’s probably the only one to get near the Welsh squad.

You put Mitchell ahead of Quirke and JVP ?

[Rugbygramps]

Don't get the selection of Care?

He was yesterdays "flash nearly good enough." Useful for a cameo harem-scarem off the bench but not an international game controller. Perhaps age and loss of pace has taken that "finisher" role from him? Certainly JVP made an impact off the bench in the 1st test. A bit like Cipriani in that all the flash stuff in the world doesn't stop your flaws being exposed at the very highest level, whatever the press say.

Is it to help Smith? With the dominant presence of Farrell does Jones feel that Smith may play a more natural game with the support of his famously gobby club scrum half feeding him the ball where he expects and is less likely to stand back where Farrell tells him to be? Rather than JVP who, although a better player, might not be ready to tell Smith where he wants him when Farrell is saying something else. Just a thought?

Loss of pace! Have you watched a Quins game? Do you really think Smith needs to be told where to stand?

Unfortunately Smith has yet to transfer that Quins form to England on a regular basis.

[markharbtiger]

You put Mitchell ahead of Quirke and JVP ?

That is a surprise. Mitchell has many strengths, but the other two are stronger in my opinion.

I am pretty sure I heard EJ say in an interview that BY simply wasn't touring, not that he wasn't good enough.

[Rugbygramps]

You put Mitchell ahead of Quirke and JVP ?

That is a surprise. Mitchell has many strengths, but the other two are stronger in my opinion.

I am pretty sure I heard EJ say in an interview that BY simply wasn't touring, not that he wasn't good enough.

Makes sense from both parties. Lenny needed a break, and Jones wasn’t going to learn a lot new.
I think if Lenny gets the shirt back and keeps it, I can see Quirke being the finisher if he regains fitness and form.

[markharbtiger]

You put Mitchell ahead of Quirke and JVP ?

That is a surprise. Mitchell has many strengths, but the other two are stronger in my opinion.

I am pretty sure I heard EJ say in an interview that BY simply wasn't touring, not that he wasn't good enough.

Makes sense from both parties. Lenny needed a break, and Jones wasn’t going to learn a lot new.
I think if Lenny gets the shirt back and keeps it, I can see Quirke being the finisher if he regains fitness and form.

Well, I am VERY biased, but if I were EJ I'd go with BY and JVP...

[Rugbygramps]

That is a surprise. Mitchell has many strengths, but the other two are stronger in my opinion.

I am pretty sure I heard EJ say in an interview that BY simply wasn't touring, not that he wasn't good enough.

Makes sense from both parties. Lenny needed a break, and Jones wasn’t going to learn a lot new.
I think if Lenny gets the shirt back and keeps it, I can see Quirke being the finisher if he regains fitness and form.

Well, I am VERY biased, but if I were EJ I'd go with BY and JVP...

Mine was more a hopeful post that we don’t want to loose our 2 best scrum halves for half this season.

TBF I’ve been very impressed with Quirke prior to his injury and feel he could be an excellent finisher he hind a Lenny or a JVP

[markharbtiger]

Rugbygramps - fair point, and I agree with you. From a purely Tigers perspective of course I would suggest that neither JVP or BY should play for England...

[Dokie]

Anything Jones says has to be taken with a pinch of salt I’m afraid. No issues with Cares ability but to not pick jvp after last week’s performance and the cite the speed of the ground as a reason is ridiculous.

With regard to the Care/Lenny debate, we don’t know whether Youngs was not selected, or he requested not to tour.
As Jones will persist with Smith come hell or high water I have a feeling that the 2 of the 3 scrum halfs will be Care, JVP, and one of Randall, Mitchell or Quirke.

I think it’s still any 3 from 6. Form and injury next season should be the deciding factor but you never can tell with Eddie. Maybe he’ll go left field and select Spencer. Mitchell’s your best 9 for me. He’s probably the only one to get near the Welsh squad.

You put Mitchell ahead of Quirke and JVP ?

I think Mitchell’s really got something. I think Quirke is over hyped and JVP is somewhere between the two.

[Dokie]

Don't get the selection of Care?

He was yesterdays "flash nearly good enough." Useful for a cameo harem-scarem off the bench but not an international game controller. Perhaps age and loss of pace has taken that "finisher" role from him? Certainly JVP made an impact off the bench in the 1st test. A bit like Cipriani in that all the flash stuff in the world doesn't stop your flaws being exposed at the very highest level, whatever the press say.

Is it to help Smith? With the dominant presence of Farrell does Jones feel that Smith may play a more natural game with the support of his famously gobby club scrum half feeding him the ball where he expects and is less likely to stand back where Farrell tells him to be? Rather than JVP who, although a better player, might not be ready to tell Smith where he wants him when Farrell is saying something else. Just a thought?

Loss of pace! Have you watched a Quins game? Do you really think Smith needs to be told where to stand?

Unfortunately Smith has yet to transfer that Quins form to England on a regular basis.

It’s hard to suggest anything other than that’s down to Eddie rather than Marcus.

[Hot_Charlie]

I think it’s still any 3 from 6. Form and injury next season should be the deciding factor but you never can tell with Eddie. Maybe he’ll go left field and select Spencer. Mitchell’s your best 9 for me. He’s probably the only one to get near the Welsh squad.

You put Mitchell ahead of Quirke and JVP ?

I think Mitchell’s really got something. I think Quirke is over hyped and JVP is somewhere between the two.

Considering Mitchell's been in the most recent England camps, EJ has him further down the order.

And yes, going in attack he's got something, but maybe he's not got the all-round game and - importantly - composure (4 yellow cards this season - at least Care's generally come on or around the halfway line!) for international rugby?

[Rugbygramps]

Loss of pace! Have you watched a Quins game? Do you really think Smith needs to be told where to stand?

Unfortunately Smith has yet to transfer that Quins form to England on a regular basis.

It’s hard to suggest anything other than that’s down to Eddie rather than Marcus.

Despite others suggestions I have personally seen very little evidence that he is able to play outside the Quins system, where the attacking structure is built around him. It would be very surprising for an international team to do the same.

[Dokie]

Unfortunately Smith has yet to transfer that Quins form to England on a regular basis.

It’s hard to suggest anything other than that’s down to Eddie rather than Marcus.

Despite others suggestions I have personally seen very little evidence that he is able to play outside the Quins system, where the attacking structure is built around him. It would be very surprising for an international team to do the same.

England’s problems eminate from their selection or lack of options at 12.
Farrell is a class player but he is England’s second best 10. There’s no sign of NZ shoehorning Mounga into the team just because he’s class. So where do England go? They brought in Atkinson and Lawrence as ball carriers and didn’t fancy either. Porter is better suited to 12 for me but as good an adaptable club player he is for us, I don’t think he’s international level. O’Conor is great at times but can also be less than great. Which leaves Lozowski, Kelly and Hendrickson. All largely untried but one or more of them could be the answer.

[mol2]

One of Jones problems as a coach is that he tends to identify his best players but seems to struggle to accept that if you have two good players in one position moving one of them into another isn't as good as playing one and another "lesser" player in their correct position.

I understand the need for some versatility but when your opponents put specialists in each place it is far easier to get that team to play the way you want.

Using Daly as an example who is a quality centre (not at international level because he doesn't tackle) but Jones played him at full back where is woeful under the high ball and not your best last line of defence. Pick a full back not play a centre at full back.
2 fly halves. Centres on the wing...

[Rugbygramps]

It’s hard to suggest anything other than that’s down to Eddie rather than Marcus.

Despite others suggestions I have personally seen very little evidence that he is able to play outside the Quins system, where the attacking structure is built around him. It would be very surprising for an international team to do the same.

England’s problems eminate from their selection or lack of options at 12.
Farrell is a class player but he is England’s second best 10. There’s no sign of NZ shoehorning Mounga into the team just because he’s class. So where do England go? They brought in Atkinson and Lawrence as ball carriers and didn’t fancy either. Porter is better suited to 12 for me but as good an adaptable club player he is for us, I don’t think he’s international level. O’Conor is great at times but can also be less than great. Which leaves Lozowski, Kelly and Hendrickson. All largely untried but one or more of them could be the answer.

Agree to disagree but Farrell is England best 10, to clarify I think he is the best all round 10, not the most skilful.Do agree about the 12 shirt though and because of Tuilagi ongoing fitness issues this problem has really been highlighted. I do feel that a fit Dan Kelly could be the answer there, he certainly has the physical and skill sets.
As for Porter I feel his best position is 13. Is he test class there yet, probably not but given another season playing there regularly he could get there.

[sam16111986]

It’s hard to suggest anything other than that’s down to Eddie rather than Marcus.

Despite others suggestions I have personally seen very little evidence that he is able to play outside the Quins system, where the attacking structure is built around him. It would be very surprising for an international team to do the same.

England’s problems eminate from their selection or lack of options at 12.
Farrell is a class player but he is England’s second best 10. There’s no sign of NZ shoehorning Mounga into the team just because he’s class. So where do England go? They brought in Atkinson and Lawrence as ball carriers and didn’t fancy either. Porter is better suited to 12 for me but as good an adaptable club player he is for us, I don’t think he’s international level. O’Conor is great at times but can also be less than great. Which leaves Lozowski, Kelly and Hendrickson. All largely untried but one or more of them could be the answer.

Didn't they spend a period of time with Barrett at 15 and Mo'unga at 10 to get them both on the pitch at the same time?

Farrell isn't an international quality 10. England tried that was it 2018 or 2019 6N? Played Farrell/Manu/Slade it didn't work and Ford was straight back in apart from the odd occasion when England wanted to be more robust and direct. Farrell might do the job on occasion but most international defences would nullify him if he was the go to option all the time.

Ford is England's best all round flyhalf but Smith brings something more in attack and at a World Cup that is worth its weight in gold. Plus England need another viable option at 10 so it makes lots of sense to persevere with Smith a while longer. Eddie knows he can slot Ford straight back in if he needs to but he also needs to know if there's an injury to Smith or to Ford he has another option.