Sort the tackle area out, please!

[ourla]

Now I am confused again.

So the laws haven't changed and rucking - as in raking a player to obtain the ball - was never allowed?

I am sure from memory old films I have seen it. Maybe it was generally accepted, only penalised if really bad?

I think the convention now is to stand with your arms out shouting at the ref, who then either penalises or says "No, the ball is available" or "No, it's your own player holding him in".

Maybe we've drifted away from what the problem is in the tackle area.... people on the deck, sealing, passive, sliding in... that the OP seemed to have a problem with.

[jgriffin]

Now I am confused again.

So the laws haven't changed and rucking - as in raking a player to obtain the ball - was never allowed?

I am sure from memory old films I have seen it. Maybe it was generally accepted, only penalised if really bad?

I think the convention now is to stand with your arms out shouting at the ref, who then either penalises or says "No, the ball is available" or "No, it's your own player holding him in".

Maybe we've drifted away from what the problem is in the tackle area.... people on the deck, sealing, passive, sliding in... that the OP seemed to have a problem with.

Quite correct - the multiple offences, but also it is worth contrasting now with an older type of game - still paradoxically under the same laws!

[DingDong]

Rucking with the back of the heel to gain possession of the ball is and has always been legal so no problem there. Players on the wrong side impeding the ball are rare nowadays due to the existing law of ball and tackle release so I can't see the point of bringing back that fine old art of a damn good shoeing.

The issue for me at the breakdown is that the ball carrier, tackler/s is not rolling away (illegal), which then causes incoming players to clear them out (illegal), they in turn lay there (illegal), jacklers are pulled over by players off their feet (illegal), those off their feet hold on to players who are on their feet (illegal), players on their feet pull over the ruck (illegal) all contributing to the ball being sealed off to the defence. A mess.

If the first offence were reffed stricter there would be far more competition for the ball rather than the playground bundle it usually ends up, the remaining offences are then unlikely to happen and if they do - ping them!

[Crofty]

Rucking with the back of the heel to gain possession of the ball is and has always been legal so no problem there. Players on the wrong side impeding the ball are rare nowadays due to the existing law of ball and tackle release so I can't see the point of bringing back that fine old art of a damn good shoeing.

The issue for me at the breakdown is that the ball carrier, tackler/s is not rolling away (illegal), which then causes incoming players to clear them out (illegal), they in turn lay there (illegal), jacklers are pulled over by players off their feet (illegal), those off their feet hold on to players who are on their feet (illegal), players on their feet pull over the ruck (illegal) all contributing to the ball being sealed off to the defence. A mess.

If the first offence were reffed stricter there would be far more competition for the ball rather than the playground bundle it usually ends up, the remaining offences are then unlikely to happen and if they do - ping them!

As Brian Moore frequently puts it, you don't need new laws, the laws are already there, apply them!

[Old Hob]

The real issue for me, and why I think old fashioned rucking was better, is that everyone nowadays flops on to the floor like elephant seals and in rucks players were upright. People on the floor were moved with the foot, but, I agree, actual stamping and raking was rare and usually caused a flare up so it became obvious to officials. Red/ yellow cards would have been useful then but were not available. The point is, it was a genuine contest as was the scrum.

[JP14]

Rucking with the back of the heel to gain possession of the ball is and has always been legal so no problem there. Players on the wrong side impeding the ball are rare nowadays due to the existing law of ball and tackle release so I can't see the point of bringing back that fine old art of a damn good shoeing.

The issue for me at the breakdown is that the ball carrier, tackler/s is not rolling away (illegal), which then causes incoming players to clear them out (illegal), they in turn lay there (illegal), jacklers are pulled over by players off their feet (illegal), those off their feet hold on to players who are on their feet (illegal), players on their feet pull over the ruck (illegal) all contributing to the ball being sealed off to the defence. A mess.

If the first offence were reffed stricter there would be far more competition for the ball rather than the playground bundle it usually ends up, the remaining offences are then unlikely to happen and if they do - ping them!

As Brian Moore frequently puts it, you don't need new laws, the laws are already there, apply them!

+1.

[Nofrontteeth]

I'm of the old school. A little tickle with the studs did no harm greater, if as great as a smack in the mouth!
Watching todays flying at the grounded man with a rising shoulder reminds me of that other 1960's Saturday entertainment Kent Walton and Wrestling.
Now where did I leave my Zimmer?

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

Watch Scotland with Jim Telfer at the helm to see rucking...

I would say ban the jackal, but could see just huge back rows these days as a result, not necessarily the outcome we want..

Something has to be done for both the game itself & player welfare (you are unlikely to suffer long term damage from a stud on the back or leg, but the current madness you are)

[Nofrontteeth]

Agree with WRFC. Watching old tape of 5 nations. Scrums no slower than the RL version, Hooker had to hook hence taped double socks around the ankles. No time for the scrum to think of fooling the Ref. Ball in and if you all fell down so what the game went on. The fat boys lay on the floor and the centres/wing score.
I'm with Brian Moore The rules are there just enforce them.

[DingDong]

I would say ban the jackal...

To jackal is to simply pick up the ball at a tackle before a ruck is formed, so a positive action IMO. It's the players off their feet who pull them over, or opposition coming in to then form a ruck and deliberately collapse the newly formed ruck (not drive them off) that needs reffing properly, then we'd have a fairer and more open game.

[Scott1]

Yes,jackalling is a thing of beauty at times. Definitely needs leaving in the game.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Yes,jackalling is a thing of beauty at times. Definitely needs leaving in the game.

Problem is the rules currently favour the jackel too much, this leads to teams focusing on territory over possession as the riak of turnovers if isolated is high. This leads to playing a kicking focused game or only going when clearout support is set, ie slower rugby.

If you limit the ability for a jackel to turnover ball tactics will swing back to trying to play ball in hand rugby.

[DingDong]

Yes,jackalling is a thing of beauty at times. Definitely needs leaving in the game.

Problem is the rules currently favour the jackel too much, this leads to teams focusing on territory over possession as the riak of turnovers if isolated is high. This leads to playing a kicking focused game or only going when clearout support is set, ie slower rugby.

If you limit the ability for a jackel to turnover ball tactics will swing back to trying to play ball in hand rugby.

...so when isolated, the defenders stand around waiting for the attacking support to secure/play the ball? isn't that also slow? Alternatively, if you get caught isolated (your error) then the ball is jackalled and gets to be played through the hands the other way isn't that quicker? Can't see your logic.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Yes,jackalling is a thing of beauty at times. Definitely needs leaving in the game.

Problem is the rules currently favour the jackel too much, this leads to teams focusing on territory over possession as the riak of turnovers if isolated is high. This leads to playing a kicking focused game or only going when clearout support is set, ie slower rugby.

If you limit the ability for a jackel to turnover ball tactics will swing back to trying to play ball in hand rugby.

...so when isolated, the defenders stand around waiting for the attacking support to secure/play the ball? isn't that also slow? Alternatively, if you get caught isolated (your error) then the ball is jackalled and gets to be played through the hands the other way isn't that quicker? Can't see your logic.

No I wasn't suggesting that isolated players ar not penalised, more that you barely need to be more than a few feet away from the player for them to be isolated enough for a jackel. The issue is legally and safely removing a jackel is very hard to do as rucks are currently structured meaning that issues can occur even when not especially isolated.

[Crofty]

Yes,jackalling is a thing of beauty at times. Definitely needs leaving in the game.

Problem is the rules currently favour the jackel too much, this leads to teams focusing on territory over possession as the riak of turnovers if isolated is high. This leads to playing a kicking focused game or only going when clearout support is set, ie slower rugby.

If you limit the ability for a jackel to turnover ball tactics will swing back to trying to play ball in hand rugby.

...so when isolated, the defenders stand around waiting for the attacking support to secure/play the ball? isn't that also slow? Alternatively, if you get caught isolated (your error) then the ball is jackalled and gets to be played through the hands the other way isn't that quicker? Can't see your logic.

The problem is that increased jackaling leads to increased kicking. Currently the average is 3-5 phases ball in hand before you get turned over so guess what the scrum half or fly half will do when we get to 3 or 4 phases ball in hand...