12T or not 12T - the nation holds its breath....

[tigerburnie]

Barritt had a good game too, 11 and 15 were the weak links,despite Brown making some yards,he was woefull. As a full back he should instinctively hoof the ball up the field when running back,not take the ball into contact on your own 22 with no support behind you.

[sapajo]

[quote="G.K"

What it's got to do with Cockers is that (unlike Ford) 12T was not managed well at all by him. He should have had more starts than he did at 12 but even when Allen was injured he did not.

As for next week - it's a no-brainer - if Manu is fit he starts at 13 with 12T at 12, Barritt to be dropped.[/quote]

It is a no brainer and I hope to see it, but Barritt is one of the nailed on Saffers contigent

[Eagle 50]

What has any of this got to do with Cockers,he didn't sack Billy, he got a better offer and left,it's a shame,but time to move on,well played Billy,nice steady start to an international career.

What it's got to do with Cockers is that (unlike Ford) 12T was not managed well at all by him. He should have had more starts than he did at 12 but even when Allen was injured he did not.

As for next week - it's a no-brainer - if Manu is fit he starts at 13 with 12T at 12, Barritt to be dropped.

The low point being Clermont Auvergne away just over a year ago when AA was injured we went with Manu at 12 and Matt Smith at 13 with Billy benching. if that's not a message from the coaches I don't know what is.

A little over a year later and the lad is running out at Twickenham with a white 12 shirt on.

Billy's talent was not prioritised by the coaches and he felt compelled to move on...

Well done today Billy, just wish he'd been a Tigers player still, but very proud of him anyway.

[PM76]

Fair play Billy. Well done lad.

As for how it relates to us, Gloucester lose a good player for half the season (and could benefit England), and Tigers have a good player (Allen) for the whole season.

Not a bad deal to me.

Indeed, Billy played v.well as I said in another post but I would still rather see AA at 12 for Tigers.

I do have doubts as to whether Barritt will be dropped, Manu is more likely to be on the bench/ back at Tigers IMO.

[sapajo]

Barritt had a good game too, 11 and 15 were the weak links,despite Brown making some yards,he was woefull. As a full back he should instinctively hoof the ball up the field when running back,not take the ball into contact on your own 22 with no support behind you.

Thought Brown was clueless today he made a number of very poor decisions that cost us points.

[tigerburnie]

What I have seen of Brown for Quinns he looks silky smooth with ball in hand,he looked a bit like a rabbit in the headlights today.

[jgriffin]

First point - 12T was nominally competing with AA, not Manu. 12T and Manu was the partnership some of us wanted to see, but Tigers saw 12T as a sub. IMO AA is a very good league player but not a real international prospect. I don't know what game some were watching, though I expected the usual condescending comments when they were proved wrong, but 12T had a very good international debut and grew into the role well.
I cannot see anyone but Haskell on the park instead of Morgan. Haskell made a considerable impact at the breakdown and as a link player. IMO he played better than Morgan overall, Morgan making breaks but not doing the breakdown stuff or linking that well.
BY had a great game, Care caused us more problems than Scotland. BY did not make Farrell look good, Farrell had by far his best game in an England jersey.
Brown was largely poor, Goode made a few bad decisions, Ashton was hungry and played a good game. Barritt did not impress. The England starting pack was fine, with Haskell at 8 could be even better.
Minimal changes to be made going to Ireland and I agree with SCW - put Manu on the bench until 50 mins or so then send him on for Barritt and into the Irish centre channel rampaging. It also makes sense if either Barritt or 12T or even whoever plays 10 gets injured - you will have no change for the Irish.

[mol2]

Brown is a full back and doesn't look comfortable on the wing. He looks like he feels he needs to attack when at times it's not wise and an experienced wing would have offloaded or kicked (although few wings have boot like his).
Running the ball back from full back tends to take you up the middle where you should have the support of your retreating forwards and the wing to buy you some time if you get tackled. On the wing he got isolated.
Will this come with time I don't know. For some the wing and full back roles are any easy interchange.

For me 'd move Brown to full back and play Foden on the wing. Foden is a tad frail under the high ball and looks more comfortable there.

If Manu is fully fit I'd play him ahead of Barritt. Barritt can play inside centre but 36 is the only one of the 3 that is a genuine inside centre and has the distribution skills.
Manu is a player you can't leave out - the opposition know he can't be allowed to play, so in shutting him down space is made for others. Sides that don't commit extra to covering him - in the way New Zealand didn't are taking a big risk.

[tigerburnie]

I am more concerned that our pack did not dominate as well as I thought they would,Irelands front five at home in the set and the loose will be better than Scotlands. Scotlands front row is not as good as Irelands in any phases of the game,so we could be under pressure,is Corbs out of contention for next week?

[Jay C]

I am more concerned that our pack did not dominate as well as I thought they would,Irelands front five at home in the set and the loose will be better than Scotlands. Scotlands front row is not as good as Irelands in any phases of the game,so we could be under pressure,is Corbs out of contention for next week?

Corbs is out for the whole tournament and Marler did not have a good game today - problems for England there that Ireland will exploit !

[Smurphswillgetya]

Well done to Billy, a really impressive debut.

[jgriffin]

Time for Matt Mullen perhaps?

PS Boris is EPS qualified if they're short of LH's!

[h's dad]

It's a lot different going into the 2011 WC rather than having 3 years to build a team for the next WC. Johnson was having to pick a team to win games, for SL results are a lot less relevant.

Er, wasn't MJ appointed in April 2008, giving a good three and a half years to prepare for 2011 RWC?

Yes - and he immediately set about rejuvenating the squad - in came a load of younger players - he handed out debuts to the likes of Cole, Hartley, Corbisiero, Robshaw, Lawes, Doran-Jones, Mullan, Wilson, Wood, Care, Ben Youngs, Cipriani, Tuilagi, Sharples, Foden, Ashton and Armitage (both of them) when they were all in their early 20s, and most of them are now core squad or first team players under Lancaster.

Brian Ashton's WC team included the likes of Chuter, Regan, Vickery, Freshwater, Kay, Corry, Worsley, Dallaglio, Farrell, Catt, Lewsey and Robinson who were all in their 30s and needed replacing (and Simon Shaw, who was well into his 30s but apparently didn't need replacing).

Squads are much older at the end of a WC cycle than at the start. This SHOULD be something of a truism, but apparently not...

I follow the truism (probably more of a generalism). You point out that Ashton's squad was rather experienced and MJ rejuvenated with, at least, the 18 you name above. I understand SL has also capped at least 18 new players, many of which I would expect to feature in the 2015 world cup.

I think that seems to further highlights similarities between the tasks and approach of MJ and SL rather than differences.

[fleabane]

I would prefer to see Foden on the wing, rather than Brown, with 36 and Manu in the centre and BY and Flood at 9 and 10. But it ain't gonna happen.

Farrell is being groomed for the 2015 10 shirt, although I think the charismatic Burns could end up snatching it. Sorry for Toby, whose career seems to have been stymied by injury and Farrell Snr.

[sapajo]

I would prefer to see Foden on the wing, rather than Brown, with 36 and Manu in the centre and BY and Flood at 9 and 10. But it ain't gonna happen.

Farrell is being groomed for the 2015 10 shirt, although I think the charismatic Burns could end up snatching it. Sorry for Toby, whose career seems to have been stymied by injury and Farrell Snr.

Farrell played very well today but would he really now be the start England 10 without his father being where he is now nor indeed where he was previously in the England Senior Management Team?