Cockerill's future

[Will S]

What we should do is sack Cockerill and then go out and recruit the most successful Premiership manager of the last three years. Hang on a minute .....

[tig1]

I keep reading people suggesting Austin as backs coachfor example. I mean really ?

He is going to give up a highly lucrative psuedo celebrity, commentator, dancing, jumping through polysterene cut outs etc and living in London to come back and stand at Oval Park coaching Tigers backs ?

[Smudge]

Couldn't disagree more - it would be an act of madness to change the coaching staff at this point in the season. Tigers have climbed from 11th to 4th in the Aviva; have outscored the rest of the premiership; players are just returning from injury and playing themselves in - there is a danger we could play our strongest XV before the end of the season!

Each Aviva game is, in effect, a knock-out game. How many games can we afford to lose and still be in the top four - one, possibly two? - which is tough, both mentally and physically, on the players. How many could we afford to lose and still qualify for the HC? How would changing the coaches immediately help deal with any of that?

IMHO Cockers is safe for next season if he delivers HC qualification and can satisfy the board that his plans for next season are sound. Failure on the latter would, of course, be a sufficient condition for his departure!

By that you are implying that there are no great coaches around the world?
That is as daft as leaving the decision until the end of season in case it might get better. To accept a top four position and that would be enough to give Cockers another season? That IS madness my friend.

The present coaches have proved beyond all doubt that they are average at best and even with all the resources of this great club behind them are incapable of producing a team with the flair and passion the fans expect.
Who, amongst even the rosiest happy clapping optimist, seriously believe these two are capable of building a great side for the future?

I would appoint Wells to take over on a temporary basis until the new coach is appointed. Hopefully before the end of the season.
Or alternatively make Geordan acting player coach until then.

[jgriffin]

RC needs good coaches under him, which IMO he has not got. I hesitate to condemn a man who epitomises Tigers in both its passion and its conservatism.
There are better coaches out there. I was however surprised we didn't grab daddy Ford.

[tig1]

Wells and Ford. Did you not watch England for the last 4 years ?

This is my point exactly. The suggestion that we need to move away from the old Leciester model and we would do that by appointing John Wells.

[SpanishTiger]

I will be more suprised with Tiger's supporters saying an early out in the HEC and losing the top seed spot is good enough. That would be a first.

[kend]

By that you are implying that there are no great coaches around the world?
That is as daft as leaving the decision until the end of season in case it might get better. To accept a top four position and that would be enough to give Cockers another season? That IS madness my friend.

The present coaches have proved beyond all doubt that they are average at best and even with all the resources of this great club behind them are incapable of producing a team with the flair and passion the fans expect.
Who, amongst even the rosiest happy clapping optimist, seriously believe these two are capable of building a great side for the future?

I would appoint Wells to take over on a temporary basis until the new coach is appointed. Hopefully before the end of the season.
Or alternatively make Geordan acting player coach until then.

Or perhaps I value evidence based thinking. IMHO to appoint a new coach immediately is to set them up to fail, given what needs to be achieved in the coming months. Besides which, all of these 'great coaches around the world' will tend to be employed (or perhaps waiting to see if Lancaster falls on his face?) and not available immediately anyway? I really can't see what benefit there would be in appointing a temporary coach at this point - how would it improve the outcomes? Cockers either pulls the proverbial 'rabbit from the hat' or he doesn't. Certainly, failure to qualify for Europe, would prompt his immediate resignation (IMHO).

I don't fully understand the opprobrium Cocker's inspires for some supporters - he's surely the most successful domestic club coach of recent seasons? The failures in Europe are perhaps a different issue, but you have at least to admit the possibility (Ackford's article in the Telegraph summarises the issues nicely) that this is in part doe to the structure of European and English rugby?

Incidentally, my late father used to laugh at the idea of Tigers invincibility - his memory as a Leicester school-boy (he had a sports master that played for Tigers regularly) was mainly watching them lose!

[Smudge]

Wells was not a failure when he coached Tigers.
Besides, I was only advocating him as a temporary appointment.

I can't believe you want to let this rubbish continue for another day if there
is an alternative.

We will go nowhere under Cockers and to carry on is only postponing the inevitable.

[SpanishTiger]

I would say that the actual situation is like playing injured, if you keep doing it, you risk permanent damage. Better to heal it before its too late.

[kend]

I can't believe you want to let this rubbish continue for another day if there
is an alternative.

We will go nowhere under Cockers and to carry on is only postponing the inevitable.

I think I'm arguing that there isn't a realistic alternative to allowing Cockers to continue to the end of the season without destroying any chance of a top 4, perhaps even a top 6 finish. The risks involved in a change are as great (IMHO greater) than leaving things as they are. Also a club that has climbed from 11th to 4th, losing 2 games out of the last 14 isn't in a crisis - you have to say the evidence is presently on his side.

Wasps are what a club looks like in a crisis!

You would certainly review the position at the end of the season - presumably the board would do that every season whatever the outcome - to ensure you still have the right man for the future.

[TigerAlex]

I think I'm arguing that there isn't a realistic alternative to allowing Cockers to continue to the end of the season without destroying any chance of a top 4, perhaps even a top 6 finish. The risks involved in a change are as great (IMHO greater) than leaving things as they are. Also a club that has climbed from 11th to 4th, losing 2 games out of the last 14 isn't in a crisis - you have to say the evidence is presently on his side.

Wasps are what a club looks like in a crisis!

You would certainly review the position at the end of the season - presumably the board would do that every season whatever the outcome - to ensure you still have the right man for the future.

I totally agree with this. Any new coach, no matter how good they are is going to need time to settle in and get his ideas across to the players. This is more likely to be successful over the course of a full preseason with the whole team (which, incidentally, Cockerill hasn't had this season) than in a fortnight before yet another must-win game and just before several key players are about to be made unavailable because of national team commitments.

On top of that, it's no good sacking people without anyone ready to take their place. An interim coach is not going to help matters; all you'll get is someone trying to change things in one way followed by someone who in all probability has different ideas coming in before the players have managed to get to grips with the first person's new ideas. Which amazing, brilliant coach is not already employed and is going to be willing to come and coach here and solve all our problems? And what if, heaven forbid, things get worse under Cockerill's replacement? As for John Wells, he may have done well with Leicester ten years ago, but as many people keep pointing out, things have changed a lot since then and this is reflected in his relative and recent lack of success with England. Given that most of the criticism of Cockerill involves him not moving with the times, John Wells, who has just as clearly got that problem, is a ridiculous suggestion.

[Zdzislaw]

Why can't RC's detractors see that he has been the most succesful coach in the premiership for the last three years?

[mol2]

Perhaps because in the finals against the better teams we have looked clueless over the past 18 months.
We never looked like beating Leinster in the H Cup final (yes we narrowed the score when the game was over), never looked like beating Sarries in the play off and this season against far weaker opposition we scraped home wins in our home matches in the H Cup but got well beaten in France & thrashed in Ireland and even failed to take a winning bonus point from Aeironi!

Yes we've had a winning run in the league but do we think the Wasps side that we struggled to beat a couple of weeks ago would have scored any points agianst us 2 or 3 years ago?

[SpanishTiger]

Why can't RC's detractors see that he has been the most succesful coach in the premiership for the last three years?

Well, this discussion goes in circles again and again. His detractors exposed their points a lot of times in this and other posts. Basically it is argued that you can see a downward spiral since he was appointed. Now, its not too extreme of a downfall because the team retained momentum by having a great squad. But, in these last two years, it is argued that the team is showing massive signs of weakness and the overall quality of the squad is falling. (For many reasons)

Saying he is the most successful coach in the Premiership in the last three years has to be valued in its own measure. What's been the outcome in Europe in those last three years? Again valued in its own measure.

[Smudge]

MOL2 Wrote-

Perhaps because in the finals against the better teams we have looked clueless over the past 18 months.
We never looked like beating Leinster in the H Cup final (yes we narrowed the score when the game was over), never looked like beating Sarries in the play off and this season against far weaker opposition we scraped home wins in our home matches in the H Cup but got well beaten in France & thrashed in Ireland and even failed to take a winning bonus point from Aeironi!

Yes we've had a winning run in the league but do we think the Wasps side that we struggled to beat a couple of weeks ago would have scored any points agianst us 2 or 3 years ago?

I couldn't have put it better.