Sort the tackle area out, please!

[DingDong]

Might as well do away with the lineout if you aren't allowed to compete. The reason people dislike scrums these days is because they are no longer a competition anymore, might as well do away with those and just have 13 blokes running around to create more space............oh hang on, someone's done that already.
No one laid around in a ruck long enough to have their safety compromised, you either got out or shot out

Untrue, it's totally possible to compete in the air at a line out without jumping into or across the channel as seen in some line outs in every game. Its the collisions in the air that make it dangerous which are easily avoidably with stricter reffing, they choose not to. The scrums are a farce not because they can't compete, but because the front rows decide not to and mostly conspire to cheat, supported by weak refs such as Pearce, CM-K, Carley, Dickson none of which can ref a scrum properly.

The laws are there, and until refs start to apply them and front rows decide to compete fairly we'll always be in this mess. Change mindsets not the laws.

[DingDong]

Bring back rucking and ban hands in there, ban lifting in the lineout as well if we are talking player safety.

Bring back rucking for player safety! - an oxymoron if ever i've heard one. The only reason lineouts are unsafe is because refs don't enforce the 1m channel rule, that space should not be occupied by either side until the ball is bought to ground. Another reason to start applying laws and not ignoring them.

Rucking wasn't dangerous - how many injuries actually occurred from normal rucking? I'm not sure I remember any (I'm sure there were a few though). It was only dangerous because of foul play which doesn't exist these days to anywhere near the same extent because of the TMO and a massive increase in footage available.

Seriously, an 18st player who can leg press 400+kg and rakes a prone player is not potentially dangerous? Imagine the TMO's adding more slo mo's to the game to decide whether that was a raking action or a stamp? was he given the chance to roll away?was he rolling away already? is he being pinned? more unnecessary additions and tweaks to the laws when the existing laws are there and just need to be simply applied.

[Old Hob]

Remove substitutes except for genuine injury and keep the game speed up then these 20 stone behemoths would soon be slimming down. John Pullin was 15 stone and a first rate hooker. Red cards and long bans for foul play Perhaps add in suspension of pay while banned.

[ourla]

The scrums are a farce not because they can't compete, but because the front rows decide not to and mostly conspire to cheat, supported by weak refs such as Pearce, CM-K, Carley, Dickson none of which can ref a scrum properly.

That kind of encapsulates the situation. Front rows to manipulate their opponents to make it look like they've infringed. But it's the refs fault for not seeing this. It's like a magician performing a trick and telling the audience they are idiots for not seeing how it's done when even fellow magicians struggle. You'll often hear someone like Flats who was a front rower guessing on who infringed. I'm not particularly blaming the players but I am not going all out on blaming the refs either. Those 4 refs you named their have dozens of Prem games each. If there was any better out there I am sure they would be given the opportunity. And as I said in another thread referees don't come into the job experience at that level. Just as players take a bit of time to make the step up so do refs. People used to, actually some still do, slag of Barnes, Owens, Poite, etc.

[ourla]

Remove substitutes except for genuine injury and keep the game speed up then these 20 stone behemoths would soon be slimming down. John Pullin was 15 stone and a first rate hooker. Red cards and long bans for foul play Perhaps add in suspension of pay while banned.

[TigerCam]

Bring back rucking for player safety! - an oxymoron if ever i've heard one. The only reason lineouts are unsafe is because refs don't enforce the 1m channel rule, that space should not be occupied by either side until the ball is bought to ground. Another reason to start applying laws and not ignoring them.

Rucking wasn't dangerous - how many injuries actually occurred from normal rucking? I'm not sure I remember any (I'm sure there were a few though). It was only dangerous because of foul play which doesn't exist these days to anywhere near the same extent because of the TMO and a massive increase in footage available.

Seriously, an 18st player who can leg press 400+kg and rakes a prone player is not potentially dangerous? Imagine the TMO's adding more slo mo's to the game to decide whether that was a raking action or a stamp? was he given the chance to roll away?was he rolling away already? is he being pinned? more unnecessary additions and tweaks to the laws when the existing laws are there and just need to be simply applied.

The original laws were just fine. I never got hurt in a ruck even with 18+ stone guys contesting the ball, just the usual bump and knocks expected. Players knew where to put and how to use their feet. A skill now lost just like the hooking of the ball at a scrum was. Look at the damage the 'big hit' scrum has responsible for and has now thankfully been rescinded. It is the commercial pressure put on the game that forces many of the, IMO, stupid changes to laws of RU

[BengalTiger]

"Remove substitutes except for genuine injury and keep the game speed up then these 20 stone behemoths would soon be slimming down. John Pullin was 15 stone and a first rate hooker."

This I agree with, substitutions should be for genuine injuries only, verified by a doctor and any player substituted for an injury cannot be picked for the next match, that would stop this parade of fresh front rows at 63 minutes and 35 seconds each and every match, I would like to see some of these behemoths try running about for the full 80 minutes!

[BengalTiger]

The scrums are a farce not because they can't compete, but because the front rows decide not to and mostly conspire to cheat, supported by weak refs such as Pearce, CM-K, Carley, Dickson none of which can ref a scrum properly.

That kind of encapsulates the situation. Front rows to manipulate their opponents to make it look like they've infringed. But it's the refs fault for not seeing this. It's like a magician performing a trick and telling the audience they are idiots for not seeing how it's done when even fellow magicians struggle. You'll often hear someone like Flats who was a front rower guessing on who infringed. I'm not particularly blaming the players but I am not going all out on blaming the refs either. Those 4 refs you named their have dozens of Prem games each. If there was any better out there I am sure they would be given the opportunity. And as I said in another thread referees don't come into the job experience at that level. Just as players take a bit of time to make the step up so do refs. People used to, actually some still do, slag of Barnes, Owens, Poite, etc.

When did the refs stop enforcing no binding on the arm? this is a cause of many of the ills at scrum time, it used to be a straight penalty and correctly so but now refs have developed another blind spot!

[Cardiff Tig]

Bring back rucking for player safety! - an oxymoron if ever i've heard one. The only reason lineouts are unsafe is because refs don't enforce the 1m channel rule, that space should not be occupied by either side until the ball is bought to ground. Another reason to start applying laws and not ignoring them.

Rucking wasn't dangerous - how many injuries actually occurred from normal rucking? I'm not sure I remember any (I'm sure there were a few though). It was only dangerous because of foul play which doesn't exist these days to anywhere near the same extent because of the TMO and a massive increase in footage available.

Seriously, an 18st player who can leg press 400+kg and rakes a prone player is not potentially dangerous? Imagine the TMO's adding more slo mo's to the game to decide whether that was a raking action or a stamp? was he given the chance to roll away?was he rolling away already? is he being pinned? more unnecessary additions and tweaks to the laws when the existing laws are there and just need to be simply applied.

You have to remember that 99% of the time players end up on the wrong side of the tackle because they want to end up there. If a player is held in that would be obvious very quickly and the ref would blow up. Like I said, the injuries from rucking were almost non-existant. And certainly no worse than players receive from general play these days.

[tigerburnie]

[

Seriously, an 18st player who can leg press 400+kg and rakes a prone player is not potentially dangerous? Imagine the TMO's adding more slo mo's to the game to decide whether that was a raking action or a stamp? was he given the chance to roll away?was he rolling away already? is he being pinned? more unnecessary additions and tweaks to the laws when the existing laws are there and just need to be simply applied.

Raking was never allowed, that is not rucking, stamping was never allowed either.

[tigerburnie]

Might as well do away with the lineout if you aren't allowed to compete. The reason people dislike scrums these days is because they are no longer a competition anymore, might as well do away with those and just have 13 blokes running around to create more space............oh hang on, someone's done that already.
No one laid around in a ruck long enough to have their safety compromised, you either got out or shot out

Untrue, it's totally possible to compete in the air at a line out without jumping into or across the channel as seen in some line outs in every game. Its the collisions in the air that make it dangerous which are easily avoidably with stricter reffing, they choose not to. The scrums are a farce not because they can't compete, but because the front rows decide not to and mostly conspire to cheat, supported by weak refs such as Pearce, CM-K, Carley, Dickson none of which can ref a scrum properly.

The laws are there, and until refs start to apply them and front rows decide to compete fairly we'll always be in this mess. Change mindsets not the laws.

It's not untrue at all, it as opinion based on years of playing and watching, might be different to your opinion. When the ball is put down the middle of the scrum and both hookers have an opportunity to compete for the ball, then the game was so much more interesting as a key part of the game, it is now pretty much just an opportunity to try and get a penalty and little else. When did we last hear of a ref calling not straight or even rarer "foot up" , a lot of skills gone from the game. The lineout is nothing like the competition it used to be before lifting was allowed, the variations in "set play" from the lineout are creeping back into the game and it's all the better for it. So boring when a player is lifted, opposition don't often compete anymore.

[ourla]

You have to remember that 99% of the time players end up on the wrong side of the tackle because they want to end up there.

I don't think that is true. Staying there maybe, even though I've seen some harsh penalties given, even then.

Like I said, the injuries from rucking were almost non-existant.

Why was it banned?

[Crofty]

[

Seriously, an 18st player who can leg press 400+kg and rakes a prone player is not potentially dangerous? Imagine the TMO's adding more slo mo's to the game to decide whether that was a raking action or a stamp? was he given the chance to roll away?was he rolling away already? is he being pinned? more unnecessary additions and tweaks to the laws when the existing laws are there and just need to be simply applied.

Raking was never allowed, that is not rucking, stamping was never allowed either.

Correct, you could only ruck the ball, although much like players going off their feet into a ruck now it was get awayable with if you stayed within certain unspoken bounds...

Forgive me, I only played a bit of schoolboy rugby and only watched a bit in the old days. When people talk about bringing back "rucking" I believe they mean players running their studs down the back/front of an opponent lying on the wrong side of the ruck. Is that correct?

Not quite, rucking is where you compete to bring the ball back out of the ruck with your feet. The way the laws describe it there shouldn't be anyone on the ground, just two sets of players (forwards in the natural order of things) pushing against eachother and trying to draw the ball back to their side using only their feet. Think of it as being an informal (or loose) scrum and you'll get the idea.

[Cardiff Tig]

You have to remember that 99% of the time players end up on the wrong side of the tackle because they want to end up there.

I don't think that is true. Staying there maybe, even though I've seen some harsh penalties given, even then.

Like I said, the injuries from rucking were almost non-existant.

Why was it banned?

I disagree. Look at games where the ref penalises players in quick succession for not rolling away at the start of the game, suddenly those penalties stop happening except when the defensive team really need to slow the ball down illegally. Players know how to fall in a tackle, where to fall and how long to stay there without getting on the wrong side of the ref but still slow down the oppositions ball as much as possible. If they don't then frankly their technique is shoddy.

I actually don't know why it was banned. But it was probably due to some notion that it made the game less appealing or something that they thought would improve the game but didn't - like 90% of the law changes seem to be with rugby

[jgriffin]

[

Seriously, an 18st player who can leg press 400+kg and rakes a prone player is not potentially dangerous? Imagine the TMO's adding more slo mo's to the game to decide whether that was a raking action or a stamp? was he given the chance to roll away?was he rolling away already? is he being pinned? more unnecessary additions and tweaks to the laws when the existing laws are there and just need to be simply applied.

Raking was never allowed, that is not rucking, stamping was never allowed either.

Quite right. The ball was there to be played, but generally the opposition was PUSHED off the ball and picked up by the 9. The whole sequence was a standard practice in training - the Laws state engagement over the ball using hands BTW. You got ripped shirt/raked back when you didn't roll away and "when you're on the ground, you're out of the game" meant you were part of the pitch to be run over etc. Raking and stamping were always offences - in those days the TJ often spotted them.

(edit) can't remember the whole training sequence but it was
Tackle/roll away-place ball/ruck over (link with others and push opponents off)/9 sweeps ball away (fast pass)