Cockerill's future

[fleabane]

Succinct as ever, Bill.

[Pete]

The Leicester way of beasting in training doesn't seem to be working.

Indeed it seems that players subjected to Leicester Tigers training over a period of several years end up being fairly useless to other more enlightened teams they subsequently move to. Only those who remain for a maximum of about two years seem to progress once they have left. So well done to Twelvetrees for leaving while he still has a future ahead of him.

we need to put the structure right not sack coaches

This is very misguided. If the same old-fashioned coaches remain, any new structure will be a complete waste of time and money.

Tomorrow is the most suitable day for action by the Board. Bring it on!

[Smurphswillgetya]

I think it is time for Cockers to go if he is responsible for coaching the forwards. It is not the backs that are a problem and the way they play but how the forwards play. Our forwards may be good at scrums but they lack the dynamism that is required to succeed. Croft hangs out on the wing, Ayerza, Cole and Castro are often at fly-half. They take the ball standing still and look to put their heads down and go to ground almost straight away. They take up the backs space and slow the game down. Get rid of the front row and back row and Cockers and replace them with a decent forwards coach and only retain Paling, Slater and Mafi. That should sort our problems out.

[tig1]

In areas of sporting excellence athletes, coaches and pundits will often talk about the need to move upwards, to kick on, to raise the bar and such like.
If this club intends to stay in the elite rugby clubs of the northern hemisphere we need management who are able to take us there. RC has done a decent job but the fact that a bunch of talented players show no interest in making such a move is the reason why I think he should be thanked and dismissed.
A fair comparison is the way the English cricket board replaced Duncan Fletcher and his assistants in order for a better coaching group to enable England to flower!( sorry)

The Leicester way of beasting in training doesn't seem to be working. The recruiting doesn't either, the bringing on of academy players is either too slow or the skill sets and mindsets of those picked for the 1st XV do not gel sufficiently for a flowing game to be played. You may like bash bash rugby all the time but it seems to cause more injuries than ever and the opposition seem to be able to work out defence far more easily.

How can any elite club be satisfied with the first half on Saturday?

How could any elite club be satisfied with the way we played in France when we were unable to try a plan B.
Why do our often excellent front five put up with the high % of hard won ball that is wasted by the decision makers from 6 outwards?

Super, accurate post. If we strive for excellence, which I believe we do, there needs to be a shake up somewhere in the coaching team. I'd suggest starting with a backs coach who, either intentionally or through lack of personal quality, doesn't coach his backs to offload and use pace to unlock defences which is the way the game has moved, rather than bish-bash-bosh.

Accurate post ? My recollection if you want to use the cricket comparison is that Duncan Fletcher was replaced by Peter Moores for 2 years and it was an unmitigated failure, ending with Pieterson and Moores being sacked. It was 2 years after Fletcher left that Flower and Strauss were appointed and England turned the corner.

[Crumblies]

Smurphswillgetya wrote:

It seems to me that the only time you post is to have a go at me! Have I done something to upset you that you have a personal vendetta against me.

If it seems to you I have a vendetta against you, it is perhaps because you keep repeating the same mistake: viz making assertions on what others have said, or what has taken place which have no basis in fact or no supporting reasoned arguement.

viz posts like this:

Smurphswillgetya wrote:
I find the last few posts a bit of a contradiction. People were moaning that Cockers doesnt come out and say how things really are, and when he does people criticise him.

I (and IMHO I suspect many others on this forum) have many criticisms of Cockerill now, but lack of openness, frankness, passion and commitment are not among them! Sadly however they alone do not make a DOR.

So if you have no factual basis for a statement then qualify it with IMHO then you will have no further complaints from me.

[RWA]

Pete...who would you have as the next DoR/manager/head coach etc ?

We've all got eyes, so we can see that the performances aren't great and that it appears that there is no real direction in terms of the back line in particular, but (correct me if I'm wrong), unless you work at Oval Park or Welford Road and have seen first hand the unrest in the changing room/training pitch then it's pure speculation. Easy to say really isn't it....lose a crucial game (where not many teams have won ever), in a disappointing manner and all of a sudden, Cockers has lost the players - it all adds up doesn't it ?!! I don't want Cockers to go, but something is not right - you have to mention injuries...it's not an excuse, it's a fact !! We were missing an international fly-half and outside centre (and No1 line breaker) for our pivotal game in the Heineken Cup. There is no doubt we would have been better with those 2 players - I think we'd all agree with our first choice side out this game would still have been an epic struggle. Still, it's over now.

Cockers has to have until the end of the season...if we're still playing drivel with all players back then I'm willing to accept there should be a change.

[The Boy Dave]

Our forwards may be good at scrums but they lack the dynamism that is required to succeed. Croft hangs out on the wing, Ayerza, Cole and Castro are often at fly-half. They take the ball standing still and look to put their heads down and go to ground almost straight away. They take up the backs space and slow the game down

This is an age old argument that has raged between forwards and backs for generations. I must have heard a fly half scream at me to get out of his line a thousand times. The key for a back is quick ball and it's the scrum half who should decide when the time is right to unleash the backs. This is when fly halfs who try to run the team cause problems. They feel an overriding need to take control when really the situation isn't right. This is why Flood shouldn't be captain IMO as he calls for possession under the wrong circumstances and he takes away the important role of the scrum half. The other side of the coin is the fact that the forwards haven't been making the yards needed to create the right circumstances for the backs because they have struggled to get over the gainline but if the scrum half isn't in a position to keep his forwards organized properly because the fly half is interfering then you see the kind play we have had to suffer at Tigers recently with lots of indecision and static receivers. They need to remember it's a team effort and get back too basics IMO and Flood inparticular needs to stop harrasing scrum halfs and let them do their job.

[jgriffin]

I would add to this the playbook at Tigers which seems at times to have missed point of attack i.e.
What is the point of this attack? (i.e. what are we trying to do)
Where is the point of this attack?
Who is the point of this attack?
Hence the occasional comment on the Crumbie of ":censored: are they trying to do?"
There seem to be a couple of ploys (e.g. Flood as pivot with two running off him, often AT)and slow circleball which you would use with the U14s, otherwise it's fast hands on the gainline - a high risk game which occasionally frees a channel and leads to a try, but more usually results in dropeed ball or a turnover.

[Pete]

.lose a crucial game (where not many teams have won ever), in a disappointing manner and all of a sudden, Cockers has lost the players

This is not what so many people have been arguing. Losing one game with a dreadful attitude (and playing the first half of the next one similarly) is only the last and hopefully final piece of the broken jigsaw.

Tigers are out of the Heineken Cup because of their inadequate play in all six games. Clermont and Ulster both predictably lost two games, as did Tigers, but they both go through to the quarter finals. Why? Because they had the foresight to pick up as many bonus points as possible along the way, and also to ensure that they beat Tigers at home by more than Tigers beat them at Welford Road. It wasn't rocket science.

But Tigers have been falling off the pace gradually for three years, with the decline accelerating this season. Unfortunately there is no evidence that the current coaches have any idea how to improve matters. The team have shown by their performances of late exactly what they think. Actions speak louder than words.

As I said before, today is the day the Board need to act.

[The Boy Dave]

There seem to be a couple of ploys (e.g. Flood as pivot with two running off him, often AT)and slow circleball which you would use with the U14s, otherwise it's fast hands on the gainline - a high risk game which occasionally frees a channel and leads to a try, but more usually results in dropeed ball or a turnover

Yes it's one phase or bust with little potential for continuity. I've seen them do this stuff off of the set piece and lose the ball whilst the forwards are still making their way over. As you say it's junior rugby to a tee, rugby for beginners. I remember when B.Y first came into the side he was a breath of fresh air. Since that time he has had the life drained out of him and looks lost after his stint with the first team. He no longer appears to know what is the right option whereas before he could pick a gap or space with brilliance. Too many chiefs on the pitch for me who need bringing down a peg or two.

[Crumblies]

Pete wrote:

But Tigers have been falling off the pace gradually for three years, with the decline accelerating this season. Unfortunately there is no evidence that the current coaches have any idea how to improve matters. The team have shown by their performances of late exactly what they think. Actions speak louder than words.

As I said before, today is the day the Board need to act.

Absolutely right, and a number of us have been saying so for that period, with our voices gradually getting louder and louder. It is also perhaps worth adding that back then gradual and minor changes might have fixed the problems. Sadly now more drastic surgery intervention is required. I also agree with you Pete because of the distinct lack of action earlier the sooner the better.

[Smudge]

I second that emotion.

The time to act is NOW!

[tig1]

Assuming the club act now, who do you want to bring in as immdeiate replacement ? Do you want an interim arrangement or do you see the people available that can change the team around.

Calling for immediate change is one thing, but i dont see loads of screamingly obvious candidates out there ?

[kend]

Couldn't disagree more - it would be an act of madness to change the coaching staff at this point in the season. Tigers have climbed from 11th to 4th in the Aviva; have outscored the rest of the premiership; players are just returning from injury and playing themselves in - there is a danger we could play our strongest XV before the end of the season!

Each Aviva game is, in effect, a knock-out game. How many games can we afford to lose and still be in the top four - one, possibly two? - which is tough, both mentally and physically, on the players. How many could we afford to lose and still qualify for the HC? How would changing the coaches immediately help deal with any of that?

IMHO Cockers is safe for next season if he delivers HC qualification and can satisfy the board that his plans for next season are sound. Failure on the latter would, of course, be a sufficient condition for his departure!

[RWA]

Hmmm...so who is this mystery coach that will have us playing free-flowing error free rugby with pace, power and precision ?