Wasps in the mire - now in administration

[trendylfj]

Just my opinion and I acknowledge the difficulty of pre-planned TV schedules, policing etc, but I would be looking to reschedule the fixtures so as to enable clubs to not have as many prem fixtures during the 6N as they have planned to do. Some clubs are going to have 4 weekends without a fixture either at home or away. If it was possible to have 2 or 3 blank weekends during that time - friendlies could be arranged thus providing revenue for the clubs. I understand that friendlies can still be arranged anyway, but just feel that supporters hate playing prem games without their best players and this would help. Will it happen? - of course not.

P share money needs to be used to compensate affected clubs not just an equal share to all. Glaws say their canceled game against Worcs has cost them £400K whereas the Irish are not affected by the Worcs demise as they played their home game. We will lose income from 2 home games, others only one and there may even be clubs who will not lose any - not checked the fixture list but we are going to lose a lot of revenue. Share it out based on lost fixtures would seem to me to be the fairest way of doing it but that is just little ole me

[mol2]

Clubs have to find sustainable income and live within that.
That’s TV money and gate takings plus whatever sponsorship they can manage.

Rugby union is a niche sport in terms of ground attendance and TV audience so the attractiveness to sponsors is not as soccer where sponsors know their bit of advertising will be seen by millions more when TV shows the games. The audiences on BT sport for union are not so big so the advertising will be less.

Rugby League has been pro for a very long time and hasn’t gone down the regional route. (Geography plays a part) A rush to regional rugby isn’t one I would like. It hasn’t worked in Wales. The national side had a good run but they did in the past too.

The RFU May be happy with regions as there has never been a comfortable relationship with the professional clubs in terms of power.

Professional rugby in England has perhaps over expanded in terms of costs. Was this forced by the impact of a few sugar daddies that skewed the finances forcing others to take financial risks to compete. Perhaps. Sounds like there were other issues at both of the current clubs.

The simple reality is that club rugby has found the limits of what it can afford to pay and that this sum is not ever expanding after Covid and the impact of the present inflation and energy costs have hit those that pay to watch the game at the grounds, on TV or potential sponsors who can’t afford the sponsorship for the same reasons.

[speedski]

I think Baxter is on the money here…I mean how many times are the most expensive players actually turning out for the clubs atm.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63233239

[Scott1]

Don't think the regional route would even be entertained. From the many club fans I've talked to 99.9% would walk away. It would be suicide. Leicampton Tiger Saints? No thanks! Far more likely for me would be a global superleague, like running the upcoming 4 yearly world club championship every season. Might be empty crowds at times but TPTB would hope they would get a huge TV deal that would cover it

[GB72]

Don't think the regional route would even be entertained. From the many club fans I've talked to 99.9% would walk away. It would be suicide. Leicampton Tiger Saints? No thanks! Far more likely for me would be a global superleague, like running the upcoming 4 yearly world club championship every season. Might be empty crowds at times but TPTB would hope they would get a huge TV deal that would cover it

I still think that the hopes of a huge TV deal are Pie in the Sky. in the UK certainly, there is simply not the market for club rugby. I am not sure that BT or anyone else will see much more value in screening Tigers v Crusaders than they would in Tigers v Saints.

[Scott1]

Don't think the regional route would even be entertained. From the many club fans I've talked to 99.9% would walk away. It would be suicide. Leicampton Tiger Saints? No thanks! Far more likely for me would be a global superleague, like running the upcoming 4 yearly world club championship every season. Might be empty crowds at times but TPTB would hope they would get a huge TV deal that would cover it

I still think that the hopes of a huge TV deal are Pie in the Sky. in the UK certainly, there is simply not the market for club rugby. I am not sure that BT or anyone else will see much more value in screening Tigers v Crusaders than they would in Tigers v Saints.

I'm talking more of sharing the global TV deal pot. But you'd need to get the French on board and there's no chance of that! My main point though was there's more chance of that than regions

[speedski]

controversial though it may be, how many fans in the UK are going through VPN to Stan sports to watch the game? I mean StanS only have the UK coverage because of BT AND PRTV.

We, as fans, can’t have the cake and eat it. The reason the revenues aren’t where they should be isnt just the clubs - it’s also the fan base that needs to contribute…

[mightymouse]

I am curious to see who is responsible for the dire mismanagement of Wasps finances right from when they chose to move to Coventry and onwards. The fouling up of the deal for the move to Richo arena , the unplayable bond deal, the relationship with Coventry City and the fall out from that which has seemingly lost all local support.
It is very difficult to see what the management structure is currently.
I am particularly interested in the roll of Nick Eastwood. He was the one time finance director of the RFU, and for about the last. 10 years seems to have switched between being Wasps Group CEO and the deputy Chairman and back again!
With Worcester we can put the finger directly onto two obvious people where the blame lies.
With Wasps the water seems muddier and it is seems more difficult to pin point who exactly has made these poor decisions.
Does anyone have any clearer perspective on this?

[johnthegriff]

The clubs that have failed have done so as a result of poor business plans and apparently in Worcester's case possibly illegal asset stripping. The majority of the remaining clubs have since professionalism vastly improved their ground and facilities whilst remaining close to their traditional fan base. True some have needed help from a wealthy benefactor/investor but their core business has remained viable with bills and wages being paid. The pandemic has revealed weaknesses as it has done in many businesses where income was suspended whilst expenditure continued. No need to panic and look for radical change just yet, we can see the regional/provincial plan does not work by looking at our friends in Wales where I believe a return to the club system would benefit, possibly in a cross border two division professional league with the English clubs which would increase crowds and TV exposure.

[Grannyman]

I think Baxter is on the money here…I mean how many times are the most expensive players actually turning out for the clubs atm.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63233239

As I’ve said before, it’s becoming more like county cricket.

[Rugbygramps]

Agree with JTG. I personally wouldn’t be opposed to regional rugby but realise I’m in the minority. Maybe the answer is to include the welsh regions, if they were for it, 2 leagues of 8 possibly divided east and west then end of the season play offs top 4 in each league. I’m sure there would be plenty of tv interest in such a tournament.

[GB72]

Agree with JTG. I personally wouldn’t be opposed to regional rugby but realise I’m in the minority. Maybe the answer is to include the welsh regions, if they were for it, 2 leagues of 8 possibly divided east and west then end of the season play offs top 4 in each league. I’m sure there would be plenty of tv interest in such a tournament.

The last point is where is disagree. I am not sure it matters whether the league has Welsh Teams, is a global league, has traditioanl English teams or regions, I just do not think that the TV and, in fact, the attending audience, currently exists for club rugby. Add to the fact that the EFL has put every match up for purchase and you are going to have a massive drain on available TV money for other sports as well as football on pretty much all the time, including at 3.00 on Saturday which was previously blacked out. The only way I can see club rugby getting a decent deal is if the rights are tied directly to England matches. You do not pay for and show peak time club rugby, you do not get international rugby. That would never happen.

Club rugby needs to concentrate on getting bums on seats in the grounds before it can really start to sell itself to TV companies. I am sorry but, to be brutally honest, clubs that can only atrract a few thousand people into the grounds at the weekend need to be seriously looked at as to whether they should be in the country's top leagues. Whilst these clubs are outside funded, there is no incentive to actually get more punters attending. Make the salary cap a percentage of the income legitimately generated by the club and you will see a change very quickly. Not only would it prevent over spending, it would also mean that success could not be bought and could only be achieved by developing a solid and well attended club.

[wigworth]

Agree with JTG. I personally wouldn’t be opposed to regional rugby but realise I’m in the minority. Maybe the answer is to include the welsh regions, if they were for it, 2 leagues of 8 possibly divided east and west then end of the season play offs top 4 in each league. I’m sure there would be plenty of tv interest in such a tournament.

The last point is where is disagree. I am not sure it matters whether the league has Welsh Teams, is a global league, has traditioanl English teams or regions, I just do not think that the TV and, in fact, the attending audience, currently exists for club rugby. Add to the fact that the EFL has put every match up for purchase and you are going to have a massive drain on available TV money for other sports as well as football on pretty much all the time, including at 3.00 on Saturday which was previously blacked out. The only way I can see club rugby getting a decent deal is if the rights are tied directly to England matches. You do not pay for and show peak time club rugby, you do not get international rugby. That would never happen.

Club rugby needs to concentrate on getting bums on seats in the grounds before it can really start to sell itself to TV companies. I am sorry but, to be brutally honest, clubs that can only atrract a few thousand people into the grounds at the weekend need to be seriously looked at as to whether they should be in the country's top leagues. Whilst these clubs are outside funded, there is no incentive to actually get more punters attending. Make the salary cap a percentage of the income legitimately generated by the club and you will see a change very quickly. Not only would it prevent over spending, it would also mean that success could not be bought and could only be achieved by developing a solid and well attended club.

To piggy back off this does anyone know what sort of salaries footballers who play for clubs with similar attendance to what rugby gets are paid. I do not have any clue about football so I am curious at what sort of level does football get 6000 at a game and what sort of pay the players get at these clubs.

[GB72]

Agree with JTG. I personally wouldn’t be opposed to regional rugby but realise I’m in the minority. Maybe the answer is to include the welsh regions, if they were for it, 2 leagues of 8 possibly divided east and west then end of the season play offs top 4 in each league. I’m sure there would be plenty of tv interest in such a tournament.

The last point is where is disagree. I am not sure it matters whether the league has Welsh Teams, is a global league, has traditioanl English teams or regions, I just do not think that the TV and, in fact, the attending audience, currently exists for club rugby. Add to the fact that the EFL has put every match up for purchase and you are going to have a massive drain on available TV money for other sports as well as football on pretty much all the time, including at 3.00 on Saturday which was previously blacked out. The only way I can see club rugby getting a decent deal is if the rights are tied directly to England matches. You do not pay for and show peak time club rugby, you do not get international rugby. That would never happen.

Club rugby needs to concentrate on getting bums on seats in the grounds before it can really start to sell itself to TV companies. I am sorry but, to be brutally honest, clubs that can only atrract a few thousand people into the grounds at the weekend need to be seriously looked at as to whether they should be in the country's top leagues. Whilst these clubs are outside funded, there is no incentive to actually get more punters attending. Make the salary cap a percentage of the income legitimately generated by the club and you will see a change very quickly. Not only would it prevent over spending, it would also mean that success could not be bought and could only be achieved by developing a solid and well attended club.

To piggy back off this does anyone know what sort of salaries footballers who play for clubs with similar attendance to what rugby gets are paid. I do not have any clue about football so I am curious at what sort of level does football get 6000 at a game and what sort of pay to the players get at these clubs.

You are looking at League 2 for that sort of attendance and they have a couple of clubs there that really bring down the average. Average salary there is about £114000.00 and so even at that level they are paid the same as mid tier rugby player in the prem. Basically we cannot even compete attendance wise or financially with the fourth tier of football. TV deal wise, we get about as much as Scottish football gets per year. Not easy to compare with EFL Football as they get 3 times as much per year but spread over all of their leagues.

[ads]

The product is good, the marketing is woeful.
We're probably not going to get a big TV deal because there isn't the audience at the moment. So good marketing is required to increase the audience. Some of that might involve some free to air TV coverage, as well as the normal getting people in to the stadiums.
I think Baxter is about right and a 10 team league probably works. Along with a stronger 2nd division and promotion and relagation. Play the cup fixtures during the international periods*, bringing in the 2nd division clubs and/or maybe the Welsh if they like and we've got a great calendar. No idea if that works numbers wise.....

*Also have a mid week B league for academy(/under 23's?) and injury returnees.