Return of Champions Cup - Tigers v Stormers - Sunday 10th December 2023

[Tiglon]

More people go to watch Leicester Tigers play now than they did 20 years ago.

The problem isn't low attendances, it's high costs. There is so much energy poured into working out how we can grow the game, but I think we're asking the wrong question.

Sometimes in business, instead of saying "these are our costs, how much revenue do we need to cover them?" you should instead be asking "this is how much revenue we are actually making, what costs can we afford?"

Costs are easier to influence than revenue.

[KiwiTig]

I don’t disagree …but there is a bigger picture which not enough of us see across so many more important issues which should unite us over and above “business”

[mightymouse]

I think the cost of a terrace standing ticket is very reasonable at Welford Road, I have been more than happy with my bit of concrete for the last 25 or more years.
My wife seems happy enough with her Crumbie stand season ticket.
The costs of buying a one off ticket especially to sit seems a bit steep to me and friends and relatives who ask me to get tickets are definitely dissuaded from going more often due to price.
I agree that if the game as whole cannot afford to survive the costs have to be reduced to make it viable. Certainly lower wage bills would be the answer .. maybe some more minor individuals in the squad even reverting to semi pro status.
If France and Japan can afford to pay more and attract the best players then so be it .. good for them and the players .. just as the Football Premier League entices player from around the world .. let them get in with it, but if nearly a quarter of the industries participants, in one country disappear in one year that must be red flags to everyone involved however blinkered they are. Some may argue that’s competition and the strong survive, but in a business where competition is the business then losing constituent part of that competition is a disaster for everyone. That was the whole point of the wage cap that was so flagrantly abused by Saracens and why their punishment was so inadequate.

[Big Dai]

More people go to watch Leicester Tigers play now than they did 20 years ago.

The problem isn't low attendances, it's high costs. There is so much energy poured into working out how we can grow the game, but I think we're asking the wrong question.

Sometimes in business, instead of saying "these are our costs, how much revenue do we need to cover them?" you should instead be asking "this is how much revenue we are actually making, what costs can we afford?"

Costs are easier to influence than revenue.

The words of Wilkins McCawber come to mind!

[Rugbygramps]

It’s very easy to harp back to Saracens, and short of essentially putting them out of business I’m not sure what else could have been done.
IMO those that are at least as responsible are the money men behind the Bath and Sales of this world who are propping up teams with expensive signings and sustaining clubs who wouldn’t survive without them through normal means, even taking the effects of Covid into account

[DeadlyDunc]

Let’s face it, Rugby is pretty impenetrable to the average sports fan

Not sure that's totally true tbh. I'll grant you there are some specifics that can confuse but you can get the gist and watch the general flow pretty easy. I once sat with my dad watching NFL and had to try and explain what was going on to him. Now that was a challenge.

and the way the Champions Cup is set up doesn’t help matters.

At the risk of going off topic, the sport is destined to fail if the powers that be can’t find a way to make competitions understandable and like football, have the best players available for clubs throughout the season.

Well, the European football competitions have changed a lot over the years and have you not seen how the Prem teams and sometime Championship teams treat the Cup competitions. Wenger used to field a B team even in the final of the League Cup!

Until then no casual observer is going to sit down on a weekend and engage with the sport as none of it makes sense. If you were starting the sport from scratch there is no way you’d even consider the structure we have got now.

When I was a kid Grandstand would have rally car driving and gymnastics. There is so much competition for eyes watching now, plus gaming, plus other leisure activities. Years ago people would be gagging to go to a rugby game at 3pm on a Sunday - now if it's a bit chilly and wet...

Not sure I entirely disagree with any thing you say but equally I’m not entirely sure what your point is.

Football teams do put out weakened sides in dead rubbers or their 3rd tier cup (EFL) but they don’t lose their best players for 4 months of their domestic season.

As I say, I would be amazed that anyone starting the sport from scratch would put forward the structure and programme we have landed upon, it’s bananas

[CrumblingTerrace]

IMO those that are at least as responsible are the money men behind the Bath and Sales of this world who are propping up teams with expensive signings and sustaining clubs who wouldn’t survive without them through normal means, even taking the effects of Covid into account

Or you could say, thank goodness for the money men propping up the likes of Bath and Sale, otherwise it'd be an even smaller league.

[Rugbygramps]

IMO those that are at least as responsible are the money men behind the Bath and Sales of this world who are propping up teams with expensive signings and sustaining clubs who wouldn’t survive without them through normal means, even taking the effects of Covid into account

Or you could say, thank goodness for the money men propping up the likes of Bath and Sale, otherwise it'd be an even smaller league.

Which of course worked out really well for Wasps, Worcester and Irish.
The point is that those clubs are part of the problem as they are pushing salaries beyond the market level as with Finn Russell

[ourla]

I’m not entirely sure what your point is.

Football teams do put out weakened sides in dead rubbers or their 3rd tier cup (EFL) but they don’t lose their best players for 4 months of their domestic season.

People were discussing the Stormers putting out a B team and you suggested that didn't happen in football. It happens even in the supposedly prestigious FA Cup. There are dead rubbers even in Champions League matches. I agree about the internationals although they do lose them during the Africa Cup. And many fans resent their players going to internationals, tiring themselves out and sometimes getting injured. So it's certainly not all sweetness and light.

As I say, I would be amazed that anyone starting the sport from scratch would put forward the structure and programme we have landed upon, it’s bananas

Oh, don't get me wrong, I am not saying everything is as it should be.

[Rugbygramps]

Trying not to get too far off topic but DeadlyDunc does make a good point. As I remember it the whole process of the game moving from Shamateurism to professional happened quickly without giving any thought to sustainability. West Hartlepool who were one of the premiership early teams now play on a school playing field

[GB72]

There is a certain irony that one of the major driving forces behind rugby going professional was Rob Andrew's Newcastle paying the big 'wages' to get players in.

I am actually a little surprised that the Saudis have not looked to spread their local reputation by investing what would be sofa change in bringing the rugby club back under the umbrella of the football club like it was in the Sir John Hall days.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Back to the match at hand...

Shillcock
Watson
Porter
Kelly
Hassell-Collins
Pollard
Youngs
Whitcombe
Montoya
Cole
Wells
Henderson
Hatherall
Reffell
Wiese

Clare
Van Wyk
Hurd
Carter
Rogerson
Whiteley
Atkinson
Kata

Bit of rotation, but gives the likes of Shillcock a deserved start. I'd also like to see him at 15 with Pollard in a game.

[Rugbygramps]

Agreed back to the match. IMO we will go strong for this and rotate for Paris so a lot of the big guns are fresh and don’t have to travel to Paris, also hoping that Martin and JVP will return.

V Stormers
Steward
Watson
Scott
Kelly
OHC
Pollard
Youngs
Cronin
Montoya
Cole
Henderson
Chessum
Liebenberg
Reffell
Wiese.

Bench - Claire, Van Wyk, Heyes, Wells, Rogerson, Whitely, Shilcock, Kata.


V Stade

Brown
Watson
Porter
Kata
Bassett
Shilcock
Whitely
Van Wyk
Claire
Heyes
Carter
Wells
Rogerson
Ilione
Hatherall

Bench- Dolly, Whitcombe Hurd, Martin, Cracknell, JVP, Atkinson, Cocanasinga

[GB72]

I agree, every home win gives more opportunity to rest for away matches and so I would go out full strength here with a view to resting if we win.

[AViewFromLe2]

JVP won't be back until the New Year. Whilst he is back running, he's still to go into contact training. Given he's had such a big injury, they will want to make sure he's 100% and that's still a few weeks away.

The returning lads from injury like Watson, Hatherall, Martin & Dolly do allow us to make some sensible rotations and changes week to week, but i can't see us making wholesale changes and neither should we do so. Despite being drawn in a tough group, we have a real shot at doing well in Europe this year - we have Leinster at home, dangerous thinking we can just target the home games, we've got to attack the away ones too.