England squad for summer tour 2024 to New Zealand

[Tiglon]

Charlie Atkinson is a bit of a shock! Has he even played much this year? Was Borthwick responsible for his signing at Tigers?

With Ford and F Smith involved in the playoffs he probably is next in line if they wanted 2 fly halfs for training

I suppose there isn't much depth at 10 in England these days. I'd probably go for Skinner over Atkinson though.

I wonder if Borthwick told Atkinson he'd have a chance at making a squad if he played more for his club, and Atkinson therefore asked to leave Tigers.

[Stephen18]

Charlie Atkinson is a bit of a shock! Has he even played much this year? Was Borthwick responsible for his signing at Tigers?

With Ford and F Smith involved in the playoffs he probably is next in line if they wanted 2 fly halfs for training

I suppose there isn't much depth at 10 in England these days. I'd probably go for Skinner over Atkinson though.

I wonder if Borthwick told Atkinson he'd have a chance at making a squad if he played more for his club, and Atkinson therefore asked to leave Tigers.

I agree if your looking at place fillers till Ford and smith are available Skinners had a much better season. But then again Atkinson was given the start against Portugal aswell over Shilcock and I remember then his kicking being pretty bad, but obviously someone in the England set up is pushing for him. He looked good at wasps but for me has not recreated that since with us or Gloucester and with Anscombe going Gloucester next season you have to wonder if he get much more chance there aswell, I personally thought he looked better at 15 for us the few times he played there.

[Stephen18]

Kelly's return to form deserved a spot in the squad. A missed opportunity for England's future.

I was definitely hoping both him and Ollie Haskell Collins would get called into the squad, if nothing else to keep them from thinking of swapping nations, seems a waste for not only us but also England aswell as he really seem to be getting back to his best. but to be fair Northmore has always quite good when I’ve seen him and can play both 12 and 13 and plays with M. Smith, then Dingwall plays with F.Smith and Lawrence seems 1st choice. So suddenly from having no 12 last season there seems to be about 6 went you include Hartley at Saracens Ojomoh at bath and Seb Atkinson at Gloucester.

[TigerFeetSteve]

With Ford and F Smith involved in the playoffs he probably is next in line if they wanted 2 fly halfs for training

I suppose there isn't much depth at 10 in England these days. I'd probably go for Skinner over Atkinson though.

I wonder if Borthwick told Atkinson he'd have a chance at making a squad if he played more for his club, and Atkinson therefore asked to leave Tigers.

I agree if your looking at place fillers till Ford and smith are available Skinners had a much better season. But then again Atkinson was given the start against Portugal aswell over Shilcock and I remember then his kicking being pretty bad, but obviously someone in the England set up is pushing for him. He looked good at wasps but for me has not recreated that since with us or Gloucester and with Anscombe going Gloucester next season you have to wonder if he get much more chance there aswell, I personally thought he looked better at 15 for us the few times he played there.

He looked great for us in the PRC. I think Dickens leaving made him really struggle,.

[Rugbygramps]

No Mercer….ineffective on Friday night. Or were the players in finals not considered?

Friday night showed for me why he isn’t in the England reckoning. Sharks shut him down early so he couldn’t use his footwork and pace and wasn’t physical enough to go through the sharks forwards

[Tigerbeat]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... 991jw3dd3o

Leading figures in the club game have urged the Rugby Football Union to stick with their policy of not selecting players based overseas.

[johnthegriff]

Were England to select overseas players to tour with them which players based in France would be able to attend training camps and leave on tour with the rest of the party?

[CrumblingTerrace]

No Mercer….ineffective on Friday night. Or were the players in finals not considered?

Friday night showed for me why he isn’t in the England reckoning. Sharks shut him down early so he couldn’t use his footwork and pace and wasn’t physical enough to go through the sharks forwards

On the Rugby Union Weekly pod they've spoken a few times about how unstructured the Top 14 is compared to the Premiership - all players are expected to have the vision to play what's in front of them and the core skills to back it up.

I suspect that's why Mercer flourished in that league. Won that league. Was voted best player in that league.

He's come back to a highly structured Glos team where his teammates aren't given the same freedom as at Montpellier.

[fentiger]

No Mercer….ineffective on Friday night. Or were the players in finals not considered?

Friday night showed for me why he isn’t in the England reckoning. Sharks shut him down early so he couldn’t use his footwork and pace and wasn’t physical enough to go through the sharks forwards

On the Rugby Union Weekly pod they've spoken a few times about how unstructured the Top 14 is compared to the Premiership - all players are expected to have the vision to play what's in front of them and the core skills to back it up.

I suspect that's why Mercer flourished in that league. Won that league. Was voted best player in that league.

He's come back to a highly structured Glos team where his teammates aren't given the same freedom as at Montpellier.

Harum scarum is, probably, Mercer's best position

[Rugbygramps]

Possibly an unfair comparison but reminds me a little of Cipriani, on his day a world beater but can also be very mediocre

[fortysix]

Think Mercer is out of position at 8.............. flanker or centre, Similar to Thacker, scrum half or centre

[mol2]

Cole got dropped when the issue was really on the loose head side. Macko isn't an international standard scrummaging so the SA front tight head didn't have much to deal with, so was able to isolate the loose head so all the loading gets put through the opposition hooker and tight head.
Fair no.
But, given his age perhaps the temptation was to move on. 4 years on..... The trouble for England was the drop off in Sinckler's form and no other top level options. Stewart isn't going to set the world on fire...

[ABClub]

The issue in 2019 was the error count giving the Boks scrums. Not the scrums.

Winning pens against the head is incredibly rare these days. Winning pens with the put in, is actually fairly common.

England had 3 scrums, won all 3, won 1 penalty.

SA had 11 scrums, won all 11, won 4 penalties.

100% retention and basically a pen every 3 put ins for each side.

The difference was SA have 11 put ins to England's 3. That came from a huge error count forced by the Boks being biblical in defence. The blitz that Nienaber and Jones installed was nuts in its line speed and dominant hits. It dwarfed previous systems from the likes of Edwards and Gustard in its aggression. In 2019, it was new as well. Plus the Boks had basically the perfect personnel for it. In years to come, I expect analysts will looked back on that defensive system in a similar way to Edwards at Wasps in how aspects of it may be copied across the game. England were absolutely smashed by something new clicking as it hadn't really clicked to that point. Brutal to happen in a RWC final, but that's sport.

The win was earned in open play through their defence. People thinking the 2019 final was won or lost at the scrum is a classic case of not seeing the wood for the trees.

With regards to Coley being dropped and recalled. I do think his form had dropped off from years of playing with little break other than having neck surgery. A lower workload, then working with Aled and Borthwick really reinvigorated him. Regardless of age, he was playing better in 2023 than 2020 IMO.

[Rugbygramps]

The issue in 2019 was the error count giving the Boks scrums. Not the scrums.

Winning pens against the head is incredibly rare these days. Winning pens with the put in, is actually fairly common.

England had 3 scrums, won all 3, won 1 penalty.

SA had 11 scrums, won all 11, won 4 penalties.

100% retention and basically a pen every 3 put ins for each side.

The difference was SA have 11 put ins to England's 3. That came from a huge error count forced by the Boks being biblical in defence. The blitz that Nienaber and Jones installed was nuts in its line speed and dominant hits. It dwarfed previous systems from the likes of Edwards and Gustard in its aggression. In 2019, it was new as well. Plus the Boks had basically the perfect personnel for it. In years to come, I expect analysts will looked back on that defensive system in a similar way to Edwards at Wasps in how aspects of it may be copied across the game. England were absolutely smashed by something new clicking as it hadn't really clicked to that point. Brutal to happen in a RWC final, but that's sport.

The win was earned in open play through their defence. People thinking the 2019 final was won or lost at the scrum is a classic case of not seeing the wood for the trees.

With regards to Coley being dropped and recalled. I do think his form had dropped off from years of playing with little break other than having neck surgery. A lower workload, then working with Aled and Borthwick really reinvigorated him. Regardless of age, he was playing better in 2023 than 2020 IMO.

I’d agree and seems to be still going strong. I wouldn’t want him to stop playing at the moment but you do wonder how much more his body can take having played over 400 games in such an attritional position

[TigerFeetSteve]

Cole now added to the training squad, along with Marler, Sale and Sarries players