Are Leicester Tigers in decline?

[Phil B]

Nice article.

[ourla]

I don't think "can of worms" will do justice to what you have just set in motion

I thought the same thing Cagey but surprisingly it doesn't seem to have happened. I raised the thread because towards the end of the Welsh game thread someone said something along the lines of it was patently clear Tigers were in decline. One or two others seem to support that view. I thought it worthy of further discussion. But it's interesting that not much of a case for it has been put forward.

European Cup form seems to be the one thing that holds up quite well as an indication of on the field decline. Plus there seems to be a recognition that it's not as easy to dominate as it once was.

[4071]

I don't think "can of worms" will do justice to what you have just set in motion

I thought the same thing Cagey but surprisingly it doesn't seem to have happened. I raised the thread because towards the end of the Welsh game thread someone said something along the lines of it was patently clear Tigers were in decline. One or two others seem to support that view. I thought it worthy of further discussion. But it's interesting that not much of a case for it has been put forward.

European Cup form seems to be the one thing that holds up quite well as an indication of on the field decline. Plus there seems to be a recognition that it's not as easy to dominate as it once was.

The case has been put forward so many times that it seems unnecessary to repeat again. Particularly as both sides are firmly entrenched and the 'Happy Clappers' will not be persuaded by yet another presentation of the 'Doom Mongers' case.

Goalposts move based on the prejudices of either side, so it's hard to make a case anyway.

At the start of this season, much of the optimistic talk was of this being the strongest Tigers squad in years. Expectation was high. Now, those same people cite the fact that we are guaranteed a top 6 place as a significant achievement. Evidently expectation will adapt to circumstances, and the 'Happy Clappers' who are evidently happy with mediocrity will continue to be happy. The 'Doom Mongers' whose expectations are that much higher will only see failure.

We don't need another thread to go over the same stuff, read the same criticisms and the same justifications and reach the end with the Clappers still clapping and the Mongers still monging.

[ourla]

We don't need another thread to go over the same stuff, read the same criticisms and the same justifications and reach the end with the Clappers still clapping and the Mongers still monging.

I'll be the judge of that

[4071]

If you take Northampton, if North had been injured for the same time as Manu, would they be top of the table?

Saints' Premiership results with North starting:
W: 8
D: 0
L: 2
Pts: 39

Saints' Premiership results without North starting:
W: 7
D: 1
L: 2
Pts: 32


Given the average points/game difference between North and no-North of 0.7, had he only been available for 3 matches (like Manu), then they would have lost out on 4.9 points (roughly). That would still leave them top, 0.1 points ahead of Bath.


In reality, you can't say for sure what would have happened if North had been out injured longer. Maybe Saints would be top, maybe they wouldn't. They certainly have immediate cover in the shape of Elliott and haven't spent an entire season failing to cover for one player's absence.

Once our Plan A of having Tuilagi at 13 failed, there is no real excuse for spending so many months not finding a plan that DOES work, whether it be an international class 13 (Goneva was a frequent 13 for Fiji), an out of position bosher (Loamanu, who doesn't really play 13), or a solid workmanlike defender (Smith).

[MrPartridge]

Interesting stuff…

For me if you ask 'are we in the ascendancy' the answer is clearly 'No'. At best we are treading water based on results this year compared to others.

While I appreciate the 'but we've had injured players' viewpoint, I've said before this is rugby in 2015 and choosing from full squads of fit players just doesn't happen now. The worry is even this season recently we've shown signs of commitment and decent play… e.g. Toulon at home. But then we've seen some utter garbage from pretty much the same group of players.

Does anyone else get the resigned feeling that whether we make 4th or not, there is a sort of 'can't wait to get to the new season' feel about us?

[The Boy Dave]

Interesting 4071.
Wing is easier to cover than most other positions as it upsets the heart of a side less, even though North is a top class finisher.
I'd be interested to know how the likes of Saints would cope missing Lawes (Slater), Wood (Croft), Burrell (Allen) and George Pisi (Tuilagi) for the entire season.
If you look at other points during the season you could also add Corbisiero (Ayerza), Hartley (T. Youngs), Ma'afu (Cole), Day (Parling) or Myler (Williams).

[4071]

Interesting 4071.
Wing is easier to cover than most other positions as it upsets the heart of a side less, even though North is a top class finisher.
I'd be interested to know how the likes of Saints would cope missing Lawes (Slater), Wood (Croft), Burrell (Allen)and George Pisi (Tuilagi) for the entire season.
If you look at other points during the season you could also add Corbisiro (Ayerza), Hartley (T. Youngs), Ma'afu (Cole), Day (Parling) or Myler (Williams).

Well, they would probably struggle.

But from your list, Parling and Lawes have each played 15 club games this season, Ayerza and Corbs have both played 18 and Hartley has played 16 to Tom Youngs' 17.

Undoubtedly our injury list has been horrific (again), but whilst that goes some way towards excusing this season it really does not excuse the genuine ineptitude of the experienced internationals we are able to field.

[MurphysLaw]

[quote="4071"][quote="The Boy Dave"]Interesting 4071.
Wing is easier to cover than most other positions as it upsets the heart of a side less, even though North is a top class finisher.
I'd be interested to know how the likes of Saints would cope missing Lawes (Slater), Wood (Croft), Burrell (Allen)and George Pisi (Tuilagi) for the entire season.
If you look at other points during the season you could also add Corbisiro (Ayerza), Hartley (T. Youngs), Ma'afu (Cole), Day (Parling) or Myler (Williams).[/quote]

Well, they would probably struggle.

But from your list, Parling and Lawes have each played 15 club games this season, Ayerza and Corbs have both played 18 and Hartley has played 16 to Tom Youngs' 17.

Undoubtedly our injury list has been horrific (again), but whilst that goes some way towards excusing this season it really does not excuse the genuine ineptitude of the experienced internationals we are able to field.[/quote]


It's all 'ifs' and 'buts' of course, but if you also took Alex King away for most of the season they would probably struggle even more..

[Spicer]

I would say we are declining. We have never really been playing well for the last 3 season we managed to be there or there abouts domestically and in Europe. We were treading water as said above. Last season we started to fall a little more, this season we clearly are on the decline from the last few years. I think proof enough is the board feeling the need to reshuffle the coaches at the club to try and reestablish what we previously had.

[Rykard]

Interesting 4071.
Wing is easier to cover than most other positions as it upsets the heart of a side less, even though North is a top class finisher.
I'd be interested to know how the likes of Saints would cope missing Lawes (Slater), Wood (Croft), Burrell (Allen) and George Pisi (Tuilagi) for the entire season.
If you look at other points during the season you could also add Corbisiero (Ayerza), Hartley (T. Youngs), Ma'afu (Cole), Day (Parling) or Myler (Williams).

personally I think North (wing/centre) and Manoa are the lynch pins on stains..

[The Boy Dave]

Rykard

The Boy Dave wrote:
Interesting 4071.
Wing is easier to cover than most other positions as it upsets the heart of a side less, even though North is a top class finisher.
I'd be interested to know how the likes of Saints would cope missing Lawes (Slater), Wood (Croft), Burrell (Allen) and George Pisi (Tuilagi) for the entire season.
If you look at other points during the season you could also add Corbisiero (Ayerza), Hartley (T. Youngs), Ma'afu (Cole), Day (Parling) or Myler (Williams).




personally I think North (wing/centre) and Manoa are the lynch pins on stains..

I have a Saints friend (yes it's true) who wouldn't swap Myler for any player on the planet!

[floridaboy]

Rykard

The Boy Dave wrote:
Interesting 4071.
Wing is easier to cover than most other positions as it upsets the heart of a side less, even though North is a top class finisher.
I'd be interested to know how the likes of Saints would cope missing Lawes (Slater), Wood (Croft), Burrell (Allen) and George Pisi (Tuilagi) for the entire season.
If you look at other points during the season you could also add Corbisiero (Ayerza), Hartley (T. Youngs), Ma'afu (Cole), Day (Parling) or Myler (Williams).




personally I think North (wing/centre) and Manoa are the lynch pins on stains..

I have a Saints friend (yes it's true) who wouldn't swap Myler for any player on the planet!

Same here, Myler according to Saints fans, is just short of sainthood (no pun intended!)

[MurphysLaw]

[quote="floridaboy"]
Same here, Myler according to Saints fans, is just short of sainthood (no pun intended!)[/quote]


Yes, he's very important - lucky for them he hasn't missed too much through injury (unlike Owen Williams).
Currently his replacements are either not of the same standard, or are too inexperienced. Next season they will have Hanrahan as back up.

[Blabyboy]

I feel that in order to answer the question then we need to look at other clubs.
The French clubs have taken massive strides in the last few years thanks to the almost unlimited budget so it may be unfair to.compare tigers with any top14 club.
Closer to home, I think other clubs have improved dramatically, and they have proven this by winning things, it stains, quins and sarties. I also think that there are clubs that are showing the signs of improvement and are on the brink of winning things, is Exeter,bath and wasps.
Now, to answer the original question in a slightly pedantic way, no, I don't think tigers are in decline, however I do think other clubs are making great strides. So if we are standing still and others are moving forward then are we effectively moving backwards? Probably.
However I am still positive about next season.. I think change is needed and I am hoping it is on the horizon. It needs to be!!!!
Sorry for the typos due to predicted tetx!!!