Dan Mckellar

[Rugbygramps]

I think with both Quins and Saints there has been continuity in their coaching teams, Evans and Jones, Dowson and Vesty which has helped with their development, though Quins did fall of a bit of cliff

[Tiglon]

Even when we won the premiership final under Borthwick we couldn’t have lived with either team yesterday.

Like that’s not really marker we are aiming for

It's 20 years since we've been at that level, in a different era. Until there's a huge shift in rugby economics, we won't be back there again.

Completely irrelevant as a comparison.

Part of it is financing certainly but part of continued success at the highest level is dynasty building.

Ugo Mola HC at Toulouse in post 9 years.
Leo Cullen at Leinster 9 years.
Ronan O'Gara 5 years at La Rochelle.
Rob Baxter 15 years at Exeter Chiefs.

Those are the four semi finalists in Europe. Continuation of good coaches over a period of time let's you build up. Had we managed to keep Borthwick, Ellis and George I think that was the trajectory we were on. Not immediately but refinement over a period of time.

I thought the semi finalists were Toulouse, Leinster, Quins and Saints? Regardless, your point is a good one.

However, even with McCall, Baxter, Sanderson, Lam all being in place for a long time, none of them had a hope in hell of winning the Champions Cup this season. Saints came close to reaching the final, but chances of doing so and winning it? Very low.

If Ugo Mola had been HC of Falcons for the last 9 years, would they have won the Champions Cup? No, because money. I know thats an extreme, there is a point somewhere in between Falcons and Toulouse where the budget is "enough" that with the right setup you could challenge. Could. Clearly the odds increase the more your budget increases.

Money also makes it much easier to create a dynasty. It's a lot easier to hang on to a HC if you can offer him a big salary, and a big wage budget for his squad. Would Borthwick have left if we'd offered him £1m a year, £9m to spend on player wages, and a new state of the art training facility? Maybe, maybe not.

The problem for Tigers is that having a Head Coach for more than 3/4 years won't be likely with what seems to be our current recruitment strategy, signing HC's who are working in international setups and are in line for international jobs.

[SETiger]

I think with both Quins and Saints there has been continuity in their coaching teams, Evans and Jones, Dowson and Vesty which has helped with their development, though Quins did fall of a bit of cliff

Yes, although I think Quins had their own coaching upheavals recently didn't they? Possibly similar to if we'd lost Borthwick but kept Wigglesworth? They still made a European semi. Great continuity in the squad as well.

[Tigersunited]

Yes, I think our core of players is very strong - if we don’t achieve to our potential I fear this group could split up pretty quickly.

Does anyone think that our current squad could have lived with either side in the Champions Cup final yesterday? The physicality, the pace, the stamina, the handling, scrummaging and ability to think on their feet was far beyond anything we have produced this year.

No chance to live with Irish or French - in the prem we should be prominently in the mix.

[Old Hob]

Yes, I think our core of players is very strong - if we don’t achieve to our potential I fear this group could split up pretty quickly.

Does anyone think that our current squad could have lived with either side in the Champions Cup final yesterday? The physicality, the pace, the stamina, the handling, scrummaging and ability to think on their feet was far beyond anything we have produced this year.

No chance to live with Irish or French - in the prem we should be prominently in the mix.

And is that going to be the full extent of our ambition? Probably; I cannot see any UK club closing the gap.

[sam16111986]

It's 20 years since we've been at that level, in a different era. Until there's a huge shift in rugby economics, we won't be back there again.

Completely irrelevant as a comparison.

Part of it is financing certainly but part of continued success at the highest level is dynasty building.

Ugo Mola HC at Toulouse in post 9 years.
Leo Cullen at Leinster 9 years.
Ronan O'Gara 5 years at La Rochelle.
Rob Baxter 15 years at Exeter Chiefs.

Those are the four semi finalists in Europe. Continuation of good coaches over a period of time let's you build up. Had we managed to keep Borthwick, Ellis and George I think that was the trajectory we were on. Not immediately but refinement over a period of time.

I thought the semi finalists were Toulouse, Leinster, Quins and Saints? Regardless, your point is a good one.

However, even with McCall, Baxter, Sanderson, Lam all being in place for a long time, none of them had a hope in hell of winning the Champions Cup this season. Saints came close to reaching the final, but chances of doing so and winning it? Very low.

If Ugo Mola had been HC of Falcons for the last 9 years, would they have won the Champions Cup? No, because money. I know thats an extreme, there is a point somewhere in between Falcons and Toulouse where the budget is "enough" that with the right setup you could challenge. Could. Clearly the odds increase the more your budget increases.

Money also makes it much easier to create a dynasty. It's a lot easier to hang on to a HC if you can offer him a big salary, and a big wage budget for his squad. Would Borthwick have left if we'd offered him £1m a year, £9m to spend on player wages, and a new state of the art training facility? Maybe, maybe not.

The problem for Tigers is that having a Head Coach for more than 3/4 years won't be likely with what seems to be our current recruitment strategy, signing HC's who are working in international setups and are in line for international jobs.

quite possibly, my memory isn't always the best

Yeah you need both the capital and the continuity of quality in the coaching side. Racing have a huge budget but have struggled to win anything.

[Rugbygramps]

I know Farrell isn’t everyone’s cup of tea but he is very driven. Be interesting to see if he has a positive effect at Racing to unlock all that potential or he just ends up winding the French up

[WhitecapTiger]

I know Farrell isn’t everyone’s cup of tea but he is very driven. Be interesting to see if he has a positive effect at Racing to unlock all that potential or he just ends up winding the French up

More importantly, what will happen when the French start winding him up? Short fuse....

[mightymouse]

Red card first match? Get your bets on now!

[Rugbygramps]

Red card first match? Get your bets on now!

Do they speak Wigan inFrance

[Tiglon]

I think Farrell may have played against French teams once or twice before...

[albany]

Is there the potential for Farrells arrival to cause more problems than it solves? I think it’s fairly well known that he likes to be top dog in any environment he’s in and he could do that at Sarries because he’d been there so long he’d been central to creating their culture. But I can’t see him being able to do that when he’s the outsider and you have the likes of Kolisi already there. Will he be able to adjust/bite his lip when things are done differently?

[RagingBull]

I think people like to project what they think Farrell is like more than anything

[SASCOkid]

Clueless to understand what any of this has to do with Dan McKellar.

[Rugbygramps]

I think people like to project what they think Farrell is like more than anything

This. You hear ex players that played with him on Lions tours etc. saying what an excellent team mate he was. There is very much a public perception of him, but that seems to contradict what fellow pros say about. Yes he has bawled the odd player out but I’ve seen George Ford do similar and fans don’t have a problem with it. I would say that it’s something you would hope for in your senior players in the right scenario, maybe Tigers could have done with a bit more of it this past season