Dan Mckellar

[sapajo]

DMK is here for next season. Give him the right tools to get the best from the team he will have / want
This is what has been lacking this season. Always a hill to climb following his employment.
If same chaos continues - lack of attacking structure. Discipline and lack of fitness then and only then should the club re think his employment status.
For me 5th place is doable given how other teams are performing.

5th place is not an aspirational target.

[Rugbygramps]

I agree about next season. What is the target?

If we get 6th then arguably much better than this season. But is 6th spot really going to be acceptable or is the target more likely going to be top 4.

Top 4 would be a massive uphill battle given the quality of other teams this season.

That is the key question. IMO only Europe is now a lottery, even if heaven forbid we end up in the challenge cup nothing is certain. A good run in the PRC would be nice to help develop players and improve match fitness.
The premiership with only 10 sides is even more difficult to win than ever and it can be down to timing your run in correctly and a bit of luck with injuries as Saracens are showing.
Ifs and buts I know, but we win the Gloucester and Bristol games, which were both thrown away, and pick up a couple of extra bonus points and we are level with Exeter still in the fight. Again IMO top 4 is achievable, and given the fact that some sides Quins, Saracens, won’t be as strong next season, I would suggest the minimum target.
Those that are asking why we haven’t just gone out and replaced Dickens need to be aware of how the club has been hampered by employment legislation

[TigerCam]

Leicester seem to have had the ability over the years to employ, at times, the least capable of coaches; such an example I believe is Dan Mckellar, someone who has reduced the Tigers to 8th place in the league. This is a side brimming with international talent and yet they have in the last few months become devoid in basic skills and any imagination. DM has no history with Leicester and seems incapable of allowing players to make decisions on their own. Why on earth are we employing an Australian coach when we have so much home grown talent? Saints seem to be able to do it so why not us , likewise Exeter , Quins and Sale . And why are we spending a million on Pollard when we have Shilcock who proved himself over and over again at the start of the season.

I agree with much of the above and that is not just a "teddy being thrown out of the cot " in my frustration and disappointment of how the Tigers have performed since the final in 22.

Chris Boyd (NZ) set the bench mark at Saints and it took a lot of time and effort. No, he is not an Aussie but a SH coach nevertheless. He had the sense to seek out Sam Vesty, Phil Dowson and now with Lee Radford, as the guys to get the Saints from a hit and miss side to what they are today. It was never going to be an 'overnight fix' and CB needed to find the right mix of coaches to achieve. He is still active as an advisor to the Saints.

Ignore the result from the Gardens yesterday, the Saints play an effective game which has the added value of being good to watch. Players like Langdon, under used at Sale because of his skill set has flourished at Saints. The Saints as a whole have bought in to a system. The work rate of the Saints forwards keep the ball alive to allow the backs to do their stuff is another example of how the Saints have been transformed - but it took time.

Pat Howard was brilliant IMO. I also still believe that Lofredda should have been given a better chance. They say language was an issue - really, I don't see O'Gara having had too many word issues at R92 & LR? You learn the language. IMO it was because Lofredda had a totally different dynamic to the game that didn't fit into the Tigers wack and bash DNA. Many posted on here about getting Juan Martín Hernández at Tigers, I fear that he would have not fitted into the DNA.

IMO too many young home grown gifted players have been given the elbow rather than be nurtured. The Tigers have lots of talented players and keeping players like Scott and Kelly is a must - they are good, they need to be released to do their stuff as part of a system, just as Langdon has been allowed to do a Saints.

I want the Tigers to be successful, always have since my Leicester side of the family took me to WR in 1968. IMO the mindset of the Tigers DNA is like living on the history of past achievements, to be applauded yes, but not to be dwelled upon. Maybe Watson, Crick, Franklin and Wilkins can come up with the answer to the defective gene in the Tigers DNA.

[ay2oh]

Leicester seem to have had the ability over the years to employ, at times, the least capable of coaches; such an example I believe is Dan Mckellar, someone who has reduced the Tigers to 8th place in the league. This is a side brimming with international talent and yet they have in the last few months become devoid in basic skills and any imagination. DM has no history with Leicester and seems incapable of allowing players to make decisions on their own. Why on earth are we employing an Australian coach when we have so much home grown talent? Saints seem to be able to do it so why not us , likewise Exeter , Quins and Sale . And why are we spending a million on Pollard when we have Shilcock who proved himself over and over again at the start of the season.

I agree with much of the above and that is not just a "teddy being thrown out of the cot " in my frustration and disappointment of how the Tigers have performed since the final in 22.

Chris Boyd (NZ) set the bench mark at Saints and it took a lot of time and effort. No, he is not an Aussie but a SH coach nevertheless. He had the sense to seek out Sam Vesty, Phil Dowson and now with Lee Radford, as the guys to get the Saints from a hit and miss side to what they are today. It was never going to be an 'overnight fix' and CB needed to find the right mix of coaches to achieve. He is still active as an advisor to the Saints.

Ignore the result from the Gardens yesterday, the Saints play an effective game which has the added value of being good to watch. Players like Langdon, under used at Sale because of his skill set has flourished at Saints. The Saints as a whole have bought in to a system. The work rate of the Saints forwards keep the ball alive to allow the backs to do their stuff is another example of how the Saints have been transformed - but it took time.

Pat Howard was brilliant IMO. I also still believe that Lofredda should have been given a better chance. They say language was an issue - really, I don't see O'Gara having had too many word issues at R92 & LR? You learn the language. IMO it was because Lofredda had a totally different dynamic to the game that didn't fit into the Tigers wack and bash DNA. Many posted on here about getting Juan Martín Hernández at Tigers, I fear that he would have not fitted into the DNA.

IMO too many young home grown gifted players have been given the elbow rather than be nurtured. The Tigers have lots of talented players and keeping players like Scott and Kelly is a must - they are good, they need to be released to do their stuff as part of a system, just as Langdon has been allowed to do a Saints.

I want the Tigers to be successful, always have since my Leicester side of the family took me to WR in 1968. IMO the mindset of the Tigers DNA is like living on the history of past achievements, to be applauded yes, but not to be dwelled upon. Maybe Watson, Crick, Franklin and Wilkins can come up with the answer to the defective gene in the Tigers DNA.

Scott has already announced as leaving.

[SETiger]

I'm quite disappointed with the way this season has panned out, but if anyone was expecting a smooth upward trajectory from the title-winning season, then they're expecting a bit too much - or at least, it's unfair to pin it on McKellar.

In a sense a lot of things fell nicely for 2021-22. Burns, Potter and Porter were inspired signings. After that things went backwards quite quickly. The team was not playing well at the start of 2022-23, even with Borthwick still there. Injuries, absences, and away fixtures were blamed. Some fans were of the opinion that recruitment and retention was poor even then. After that, the highpoint was that period when Wigglesworth took over and he had most of the internationals available (and the fixture list was kinder).

So much has changed since then, and not for the better. You could argue that the players on the pitch should have performed better than they have. I think some fans have an exaggerated view of the depth of the squad, and on-field leadership hasn't been what it was in 2021-22, even though the on-field leaders are some of our favourite players.

I'm not sure how much of this can be laid at McKellar's door under the circumstances. It's clear that he's not a Borthwick-type character. But Borthwick wasn't heading for another title when he left.

I'm slightly worried that no one is very excited about the likely squad for 2024-25. We need a 10 and a lot is riding on very quickly getting a good center pairing out of Kelly/Kata/Perese. A lot is also riding on getting more out of the first choice players in general.

[longlivethecrumbie]

I'm quite disappointed with the way this season has panned out, but if anyone was expecting a smooth upward trajectory from the title-winning season, then they're expecting a bit too much - or at least, it's unfair to pin it on McKellar.

In a sense a lot of things fell nicely for 2021-22. Burns, Potter and Porter were inspired signings. After that things went backwards quite quickly. The team was not playing well at the start of 2022-23, even with Borthwick still there. Injuries, absences, and away fixtures were blamed. Some fans were of the opinion that recruitment and retention was poor even then. After that, the highpoint was that period when Wigglesworth took over and he had most of the internationals available (and the fixture list was kinder).

So much has changed since then, and not for the better. You could argue that the players on the pitch should have performed better than they have. I think some fans have an exaggerated view of the depth of the squad, and on-field leadership hasn't been what it was in 2021-22, even though the on-field leaders are some of our favourite players.

I'm not sure how much of this can be laid at McKellar's door under the circumstances. It's clear that he's not a Borthwick-type character. But Borthwick wasn't heading for another title when he left.

I'm slightly worried that no one is very excited about the likely squad for 2024-25. We need a 10 and a lot is riding on very quickly getting a good center pairing out of Kelly/Kata/Perese. A lot is also riding on getting more out of the first choice players in general.

I'm possibly in the minority on here, but I'm looking forward to next season. McKellar is, as I understand it, wanting to play a more offloading game. With the players having been drilled into Borthwick's kick first approach it's taken some time for the players to adapt.

The S&C appointment raised some eyebrows last summer and he's not worked out. The S&C coach is, imho, more important than the attack/backs coach. If the players aren't up to it physically then you can have the best attack coach in the world and he'll make diddly squat difference.

We need to find an effective back up to Pollard and we need to get good combinations going at 12/13 between those who are in the squad.

Right wing is, for me, still a concern as we have lots of natural options on the left but very little on the other side.

I, for one, just want this fragmented season to end so we can get on to the next.

We can then judge McKellar based on his coaching appointments (debate can rage whether Richardson and Dickens were his or not - what's not open to debate is that the new attack and S&C coach will be his appointments) and him doing just the role he was recruited for, rather than having to wear numerous hats.

The players will have a full pre-season under his regime and we can then judge McKellar this time next season.

Just my 2p worth.

[RunTigerRun]

I'm quite disappointed with the way this season has panned out, but if anyone was expecting a smooth upward trajectory from the title-winning season, then they're expecting a bit too much - or at least, it's unfair to pin it on McKellar.

In a sense a lot of things fell nicely for 2021-22. Burns, Potter and Porter were inspired signings. After that things went backwards quite quickly. The team was not playing well at the start of 2022-23, even with Borthwick still there. Injuries, absences, and away fixtures were blamed. Some fans were of the opinion that recruitment and retention was poor even then. After that, the highpoint was that period when Wigglesworth took over and he had most of the internationals available (and the fixture list was kinder).

So much has changed since then, and not for the better. You could argue that the players on the pitch should have performed better than they have. I think some fans have an exaggerated view of the depth of the squad, and on-field leadership hasn't been what it was in 2021-22, even though the on-field leaders are some of our favourite players.

I'm not sure how much of this can be laid at McKellar's door under the circumstances. It's clear that he's not a Borthwick-type character. But Borthwick wasn't heading for another title when he left.

I'm slightly worried that no one is very excited about the likely squad for 2024-25. We need a 10 and a lot is riding on very quickly getting a good center pairing out of Kelly/Kata/Perese. A lot is also riding on getting more out of the first choice players in general.

I'm possibly in the minority on here, but I'm looking forward to next season. McKellar is, as I understand it, wanting to play a more offloading game. With the players having been drilled into Borthwick's kick first approach it's taken some time for the players to adapt.

The S&C appointment raised some eyebrows last summer and he's not worked out. The S&C coach is, imho, more important than the attack/backs coach. If the players aren't up to it physically then you can have the best attack coach in the world and he'll make diddly squat difference.

We need to find an effective back up to Pollard and we need to get good combinations going at 12/13 between those who are in the squad.

Right wing is, for me, still a concern as we have lots of natural options on the left but very little on the other side.

I, for one, just want this fragmented season to end so we can get on to the next.

We can then judge McKellar based on his coaching appointments (debate can rage whether Richardson and Dickens were his or not - what's not open to debate is that the new attack and S&C coach will be his appointments) and him doing just the role he was recruited for, rather than having to wear numerous hats.

The players will have a full pre-season under his regime and we can then judge McKellar this time next season.

Just my 2p worth.

Very good points LLTC. I think that there’s some positives to take from the season in points around certain games, certain phases and some player combinations. If we can build some attacking ideas in then we can capitalise on the decent platforms laid up front. There is enough talent in the squad and I believe we can compliment the kicking with the attack.

Get the new S&C coach, new attack coach and new players in the door and let them fully cook with an off-season.

Each new season is different. We start at 0 - let’s see what we can do.

[SETiger]

I, for one, just want this fragmented season to end so we can get on to the next.

We can then judge McKellar based on his coaching appointments (debate can rage whether Richardson and Dickens were his or not - what's not open to debate is that the new attack and S&C coach will be his appointments) and him doing just the role he was recruited for, rather than having to wear numerous hats.

Yes I agree with this. It's been an unsatisfying season, not just because of Tigers results. We might look back and be glad that Dan's first season was post-World Cup, rather than being disrupted half-way through his stint.

[mol2]

Employment law may well prevent the termination of an individual contract until the process has been completed but it doesn't prevent the employer from bringing in a replacement on a temporary basis.

Nor does it prevent the employer bringing in someone to take on the role of a failing coach. It might stop them being dismissed without following procedures so an expensive option.
The bean counters may have said no and tied McKellar's hands. We don't know.

[westwinds31]

Wow this is serious isn’t it !? After multiple comments on McKellar on multiple threads we now have a dedicated thread to lay into him ! Terrific!

[longlivethecrumbie]

Wow this is serious isn’t it !? After multiple comments on McKellar on multiple threads we now have a dedicated thread to lay into him ! Terrific!

Not specifically. Maybe the initial intention was to critique but there are some on here who have a different perspective

[Rugbygramps]

Wow this is serious isn’t it !? After multiple comments on McKellar on multiple threads we now have a dedicated thread to lay into him ! Terrific!

I’m sure that was the OP intention but there are enough wise heads on here to look at the bigger picture.
As others have said in 12 months time there will be a clearer picture.

[Rugbygramps]

Employment law may well prevent the termination of an individual contract until the process has been completed but it doesn't prevent the employer from bringing in a replacement on a temporary basis.

Nor does it prevent the employer bringing in someone to take on the role of a failing coach. It might stop them being dismissed without following procedures so an expensive option.
The bean counters may have said no and tied McKellar's hands. We don't know.

IMO the 2 are related. As you rightly say we don’t, and may never know the full situation regarding Dickens

[kk20gb30]

The target is winning all competitions, acceptable is winning just one. Realistically we need to see clear sign of improvement, top four is the minimum target, top six maybe acceptable.if there are clear signs that we are.on the way up. For me that is a more attractive rugby, although winning in my book comes first but I want to be excited, I also want to see young players coming into the team and developing into great players. Wherever we finish next season I want to be able to believe that the following season will be even better, I did not feel that after the Borthwick Premiership win.

Generally go with this... except I see the winning of games paramount.
No points for style , I'm afraid though do see other people's stance on this point.

[RagingBull]

I just want progress

And honestly progress would’ve won us imo at least 2/3 extra games this season and put us in play offs race anyway.