Tigers v Sale (A) - Premiership - Friday 10th May 2024 - KO: 7:45pm

[kk20gb30]

Back too late from Sale to post.....
On the strength of this season not unexpected , yet still I'm disappointed (as always when we are beaten)....
On the whole ,personally I believe we are not equal to the sum of our parts - the present situation cannot be compared to the first season of the Borthwick/Murphy era - nor Borthwick's first full season in charge - we have far more first team talent and quality.

For me now next season the key , despite what I'm told re Dan McK, I simply have a reservations.
Next season with his own people both behind the scenes (coaching) and on field will be the time to judge.

Put bluntly I know The Club have more faith in him than I do - I hope they are right ,otherwise there will be one hell of a mess to clear/clean up (again). Note to ,without stating the obvious to anyone, The Club are driven by Finance and (perceived) success thus a stance may change rapidly.

I really hope next season is good for us with DMK but should things go awry note the phrase 'mutual consent'.... a decent get out clause for all.

[TigerCam]

Pretty well as I expected last night to go!
Positives for me were: Steward back to, and possibly slightly surpassing, his best. Shillcock was really good, get the impression he, more than some, is a ‘confidence’ player? Heye’s had a decent game, Kata, as per usual bought out and out impact. Carnduff looks to the manor born

Kelly for me was very good too. Slowly getting back to his best and hopefully will smash it next season. His playmaking is definitely underrated. Everyone bangs on about Dingwall but Kelly as a much better ability.

Agree, unfortunately both of our best centres are 12's

Personally whilst Kata has been great this season, he makes the most impact when off the bench against tired shoulders, so I'd generally go with that split of the two, but would rather not see Kelly at 13 too much, depends on our recruitment of another 13 to back up Perese though

It is not the want nor need for better players. IMO the Tigers have more than enough talent to win a season's competition. My issue is their ability to have the continuity to play as a team. There seems to be, on many an occasion, a complete disconnect not only in attack. One play last night, JvP got some quick ruck ball 5 mtrs inside the Sale 1/2. the ball was moved down the back line and it ended up towards the Tigers 22. That loss of the gain line sums it up really. Compared with other Prem clubs I find the lack of hand skills despairing at times. The off-load game isn't much better. Pollard said pre-game that the Tigers would play with some freedom but then said they would play their own game, a contradiction in terms IMO.

[TTRITH]

They are not calling you glib, they are calling your generalisation glib, and they have a point. McKellar will be responsible for the results if they are ultimately not good enough, the buck stops with him as Head Coach.

But he is not and cannot be responsible for the players not being fit enough. That falls under the remit of the S&C coach, that is entirely his job. Using your logic Aled should get zero credit for his work, it was all down to Steve Borthwick.

The obsession of so many fans to pin every fault on McKellar is tiresome and tedious. You don’t have to like or rate the bloke, but stating every fault is his is nonsense.

Come on, as Head Coach he is responsible for everything that goes wrong. As I tell my team at work, when there are successes the praise is spread across, when things go wrong the buck stops with me. That's should be the same logic with the coaching set up.

McKellar chose not to bring in a "consultant" instead sticking with Smith. Therefore it's McKellars fault.

If it has taken McKellar until 2 games to go "Oh fiddlesticks, we're so unfit" - that's on him. He should have dealt with it sooner, he should have got more involved. He gets the blame.

One person who seems to be avoiding any sort of comment is a certain Mr Wilks. Was it not he who signed both Richardson and Dickens?

I don't care if McKellar stays or goes. I feel he deserves more time, but I'd also understand if he was let go.

The alternative however... should McKellar go I'm not sure the track record suggests we'll be any better off replacing him

[RGS1980]

Interesting that the advert for Head of Athletic Performance has the position reporting to the General Manager, not the Head Coach. There is also an advert for a Sport Scientist which reports to the Head of Physical Performance - would be interesting to see an organisation chart for the support areas.

[RagingBull]

I don't know the employment laws, can you bring in a consultant from outside if a employee is on gardening leave? Cause I did wonder why they didn't but watching the Manchester united v Newcastle battle over Ashworth I don't know if they could

[Tiglon]

I don't know the employment laws, can you bring in a consultant from outside if a employee is on gardening leave? Cause I did wonder why they didn't but watching the Manchester united v Newcastle battle over Ashworth I don't know if they could

Once on gardening leave, yes. The employee is in their notice period so you can bring anyone you like in, it's already confirmed they are leaving.

When a person has not yet been dismissed or resigned, technically its more risky and could be seen as evidence that we'd already decided the outcome before the end of the process. However, with Dickens being within his first 2 years of employment at Tigers, he wouldn't have been able to bring an employment tribunal unless he could claim that he was discriminated against due to a protected characteristic.

Without knowing the details it's impossible to say for sure what Tigers could or couldn't have done. But, having worked for similar organisations before, I would suspect that they unnecessarily got carried away with doing everything by the book, got in mega expensive employment lawyers and made it a lot harder, longwinded and expensive than it needed to be. Just a guess though, nothing to back that up!

[SETiger]

They are not calling you glib, they are calling your generalisation glib, and they have a point. McKellar will be responsible for the results if they are ultimately not good enough, the buck stops with him as Head Coach.

But he is not and cannot be responsible for the players not being fit enough. That falls under the remit of the S&C coach, that is entirely his job. Using your logic Aled should get zero credit for his work, it was all down to Steve Borthwick.

The obsession of so many fans to pin every fault on McKellar is tiresome and tedious. You don’t have to like or rate the bloke, but stating every fault is his is nonsense.

Come on, as Head Coach he is responsible for everything that goes wrong. As I tell my team at work, when there are successes the praise is spread across, when things go wrong the buck stops with me. That's should be the same logic with the coaching set up.

McKellar chose not to bring in a "consultant" instead sticking with Smith. Therefore it's McKellars fault.

If it has taken McKellar until 2 games to go "Oh fiddlesticks, we're so unfit" - that's on him. He should have dealt with it sooner, he should have got more involved. He gets the blame.

One person who seems to be avoiding any sort of comment is a certain Mr Wilks. Was it not he who signed both Richardson and Dickens?

I don't care if McKellar stays or goes. I feel he deserves more time, but I'd also understand if he was let go.

The alternative however... should McKellar go I'm not sure the track record suggests we'll be any better off replacing him

"The buck stops here" can be a positive statement of taking responsibility in order to give clarity to the organization below the boss. "The buck stops there" can be an over-simplification used to justify a decision to sack someone when that decision is already made. Seen it happen many times.

The fact that Richard Wilks is in the conversation as well is a pretty good indication that it may be more nuanced than blaming everything on the head coach (not saying we should blame Wilks either btw).

"My job is to give the head coach what they need" is a common statement from CEOs and DORs. Let's hope Dan has everything he needs on July 1st.

[Tiglon]

They are not calling you glib, they are calling your generalisation glib, and they have a point. McKellar will be responsible for the results if they are ultimately not good enough, the buck stops with him as Head Coach.

But he is not and cannot be responsible for the players not being fit enough. That falls under the remit of the S&C coach, that is entirely his job. Using your logic Aled should get zero credit for his work, it was all down to Steve Borthwick.

The obsession of so many fans to pin every fault on McKellar is tiresome and tedious. You don’t have to like or rate the bloke, but stating every fault is his is nonsense.

Come on, as Head Coach he is responsible for everything that goes wrong. As I tell my team at work, when there are successes the praise is spread across, when things go wrong the buck stops with me. That's should be the same logic with the coaching set up.

McKellar chose not to bring in a "consultant" instead sticking with Smith. Therefore it's McKellars fault.

If it has taken McKellar until 2 games to go "Oh fiddlesticks, we're so unfit" - that's on him. He should have dealt with it sooner, he should have got more involved. He gets the blame.

One person who seems to be avoiding any sort of comment is a certain Mr Wilks. Was it not he who signed both Richardson and Dickens?

I don't care if McKellar stays or goes. I feel he deserves more time, but I'd also understand if he was let go.

The alternative however... should McKellar go I'm not sure the track record suggests we'll be any better off replacing him

"The buck stops here" can be a positive statement of taking responsibility in order to give clarity to the organization below the boss. "The buck stops there" can be an over-simplification used to justify a decision to sack someone when that decision is already made. Seen it happen many times.

The fact that Richard Wilks is in the conversation as well is a pretty good indication that it may be more nuanced than blaming everything on the head coach (not saying we should blame Wilks either btw).

"My job is to give the head coach what they need" is a common statement from CEOs and DORs. Let's hope Dan has everything he needs on July 1st.

Completely agree.

Also, the question supporters often ask - "who is to blame" - is the wrong question. We should be looking for solutions, not someone to pin all the failures on.

[Tiglon]

Our average losing margin away to Sale in the Prem over the last 5 years is 14.2 points. So, yesterday, was actually a better result than we usually get.

Only once in the last 5 years have we even got a losing bonus point at Sale.

Yesterday was our 2nd best result at Sale since 2018.

[Tigerbeat]

The comment that McKellar chose not to bring a consultant……this may have been out of his hands due to the finances of the club and the fine.

[sam16111986]

I don't know the employment laws, can you bring in a consultant from outside if a employee is on gardening leave? Cause I did wonder why they didn't but watching the Manchester united v Newcastle battle over Ashworth I don't know if they could

Once on gardening leave, yes. The employee is in their notice period so you can bring anyone you like in, it's already confirmed they are leaving.

You can be on gardening leave and not in your notice period. I believe this was the case for Dickens. Bringing in a consultant at that point could have led to a case for constructive dismissal as you've effectively replaced the employee despite the fact they are still employed. As Dickens was awaiting an enquiry and Tigers intended to keep him that wasn't an option particularly as we've found out since Dickens wasn't happy with how things were playing out.

Paying somebody off would have likely been a lump sum payment which might not have been an option for the Tigers cashflow. Similarly paying two attack coaches at the same time may have stressed the budget.

I imagine Dickens is sat on gardening leave serving his notice which at a guess would be 6 months.

[sam16111986]

I think it’s all to easy to claim people are or aren’t fair weather fans - ive sat in the same seats for 35 years - but im not happy

I wasn’t happy with Matt O’Connor, we weren’t good enough with Geordie or the end Of Richard C….,

I’m sorry but there is a lot wrong with the team at the moment - look how all the other Premiership teams play they are significantly better, more confident and you feel they will score - you don’t get this with Leicester.

The key bit though is Leicester used to fight to the bitter end and were always in the battle.

Sadly it no longer feels the case and you feel we will just crumble

I’m sorry to say we aren’t just a few percentage points off

We are significantly less than the sum of our parts

The likelihood of winning at Sale was low, for some reason it always has been - so we should have blooded more young kids

Despite the lengthy moan we were very much in that game against a team that are in good form. We don't miss time the lineout on their 5m and there's a fair chance we scored from close in. Instead we go back the length of the field concede three points and Clare to the bin.

Yes the attack isn't working but we are still a dangerous team but we've got to be that bit more clinical 10 points conceded on the back of two poor lineouts, that I think has to be levelled at Clare. The first one he throws to no one and the second appears miss timed or under thrown.

Quite fascinating to read your anti-Charlie Clare posts over several seasons. The jumpers/lifters clearly get a call wrong, but that has to be Clare's fault. The line out on their 5 metre line was knocked back by Carnduff to Cracknell, who passed to JVP peeling round from the front, a training ground move that went perfectly until JVP passed to Manu. That too is Clare's fault. You are priceless. Keep it up.

There's been pro as well as negative. Charlie is a solid clubman. He's had a couple of stellar outings but also some poor ones. I'd be happier if he was third choice as opposed to second. Against Sale is a game I would have thought would suit him as he's generally a good set piece and work in the tight hooker. Not yesterday though.

The hooker doesn't call the lineout, the lineout leader does and why you normally see the prop from the front of the lineout pass on the message, the lost lineout on halfway is thrown in to the back when there's no one there and no one even in the air. It's a Clare error. The second one is more of a collaborative effort but it's mistimed and under thrown, presumably because Carnduff goes up earlier than Clare is anticipating. As such Sale contest it and Carnduff can't deliver cleanly and then JvP fumbles.

[johnthegriff]

Lineout are so complicated these days, far more so than when I played in times when lifting was illegal. For the onlooker it is often impossible to be certain when a throw goes wrong whether blame lies with the hooker or the choreography of the lineout. I would agree that Charlie Clare is a good back up.hooker, we currently have Montoya as our first choice and when fit Dolley as our second so Clare as third option is not bad. However this is a long way behind Cockerill & West or Chutes and Davies, Tom Youngs and Poletau- Nau or even Harry Thacker. But with Vanes and Theobald Thomas I think things will change we have two excellent young prospects who will both challenge for the starting.position.

[daktari]

At least we are not Gloucester….

[RagingBull]

I felt sorry for Atkinson

I was told Gloucester turned a corner!!!