LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[RagingBull]

https://media-cdn.incrowdsports.com/4f0 ... 98f699.pdf

[sam16111986]

Alex Dombrant went from Uni rugby to Prem first team. Freddie Steward went from Loughborough Students to starring for us, as did Dan Kelly.

University rugby is a good standard, the BUCS league has teams with professional levels of set up.

Three very different journeys there though. Steward had a stellar junior career and it wasn't as though he was ever going to slip through the cracks. Kelly had a decent junior career, capped at U20 international level, but was dropped by Sale and took a punt on Loughborough/Leicester, which has come good.

Dombrandt was the outlier, taking the very rare path having not been picked up either in an academy (I don't know if he was on a DPP at any point) or age grade representative sides. I don't know why, whether it was physical vs positional development or whatever. Very much the exception to the rule though.

Kelly spent a year at Loughborough Uni before we picked him up.

Tom Pearson and Northmore both came through the university route before being picked up by LI and Quins respectively.

The BUCS system is a good system. The universities have different squads for BUCS and league with sometimes crossover but because of that they don't sit as high in the league system as they might otherwise. There's talent in the BUCS system and not all will translate to Prem standard as not all Championship talent or academy talent will. I was merely pointing out that decrying the quality in the BUCS system as lesser than league 1 is not necessarily accurate.

[Tiglon]

Alex Dombrant went from Uni rugby to Prem first team. Freddie Steward went from Loughborough Students to starring for us, as did Dan Kelly.

University rugby is a good standard, the BUCS league has teams with professional levels of set up.

Three very different journeys there though. Steward had a stellar junior career and it wasn't as though he was ever going to slip through the cracks. Kelly had a decent junior career, capped at U20 international level, but was dropped by Sale and took a punt on Loughborough/Leicester, which has come good.

Dombrandt was the outlier, taking the very rare path having not been picked up either in an academy (I don't know if he was on a DPP at any point) or age grade representative sides. I don't know why, whether it was physical vs positional development or whatever. Very much the exception to the rule though.

Kelly spent a year at Loughborough Uni before we picked him up.

Tom Pearson and Northmore both came through the university route before being picked up by LI and Quins respectively.

The BUCS system is a good system. The universities have different squads for BUCS and league with sometimes crossover but because of that they don't sit as high in the league system as they might otherwise. There's talent in the BUCS system and not all will translate to Prem standard as not all Championship talent or academy talent will. I was merely pointing out that decrying the quality in the BUCS system as lesser than league 1 is not necessarily accurate.

I'm not saying university rugby is rubbish and all the players are rubbish. I'm not decrying anything. What I disagree with is the general idea that Meredith must be a top talent because of his performances there. Some will make it from that level, as you've pointed out, but most won't.

The fact that Meredith has performed well at that level doesn't guarantee he is destined to be good enough for Tigers.

[johnthegriff]

In the amateur days there were instances of players performing well in the Oxford v Cambridge.match being selected for England, that these were not even the strongest University rugby teams was not taken into account or that teams like Tigers would send a seriously weakened squad to play against them. So although I rate Meredith from what I saw of him in a couple of games I accept our coaches decision that he is not currently ready to be included in a Tigers squad..I sincerely hope he continues to develop as a player and that maybe in a couple of years he reached the standard required of a Premiership fly half.
We have retained Woodward who although seen as a 12 can also play 10 however I do think that either the club shows some confidence in Wilkinson or we need to sign another back up 10 unless there is a serious prospect already developing in our Academy.

[RagingBull]

There will always be what ifs with academy leavers

Look at Lavin and Smith both where gonna be big losses, and honestly could have been great for us we will never know but they also could’ve been at their ceiling already

[sam16111986]

Three very different journeys there though. Steward had a stellar junior career and it wasn't as though he was ever going to slip through the cracks. Kelly had a decent junior career, capped at U20 international level, but was dropped by Sale and took a punt on Loughborough/Leicester, which has come good.

Dombrandt was the outlier, taking the very rare path having not been picked up either in an academy (I don't know if he was on a DPP at any point) or age grade representative sides. I don't know why, whether it was physical vs positional development or whatever. Very much the exception to the rule though.

Kelly spent a year at Loughborough Uni before we picked him up.

Tom Pearson and Northmore both came through the university route before being picked up by LI and Quins respectively.

The BUCS system is a good system. The universities have different squads for BUCS and league with sometimes crossover but because of that they don't sit as high in the league system as they might otherwise. There's talent in the BUCS system and not all will translate to Prem standard as not all Championship talent or academy talent will. I was merely pointing out that decrying the quality in the BUCS system as lesser than league 1 is not necessarily accurate.

I'm not saying university rugby is rubbish and all the players are rubbish. I'm not decrying anything. What I disagree with is the general idea that Meredith must be a top talent because of his performances there. Some will make it from that level, as you've pointed out, but most won't.

The fact that Meredith has performed well at that level doesn't guarantee he is destined to be good enough for Tigers.

We're also talking about a fourth choice flyhalf who'd have been getting some PRC game time and adding squad depth. I think the general consensus is that he was probably worth a punt on a one year deal. He's been selected for England Students on the back of his games with Loughborough University.

[sam16111986]

There will always be what ifs with academy leavers

Look at Lavin and Smith both where gonna be big losses, and honestly could have been great for us we will never know but they also could’ve been at their ceiling already

Smith seemed to hit his ceiling. He's was mobile and aggressive but didn't quite have the physicality his style demanded for Prem rugby.

Lavin could have been an excellent player for us but that horrific injury that kept him out so long seemed to do for him. He's been doing well at Uni level and Saints have used him as a guest player on a few occasions so there's obviously something still there.

[westwinds31]

Going back to some of the leavers, I did see a bit of Cusick and Edwards at Notts and whilst I'm not a scout, I didn't see anything from both of those players in a Championship environment that said "these are Premiership ready". Of the others, same with Ilione. That's not to say that another year he could break through. I also wonder about the younger Chessum. Yes, he's tall and he's dominated lineouts at Under 20 and in National 2, but is there enough there in the scrums/tight and elsewhere around the pitch to kick on into the first team squad/23. I really hope that there is, but haven't seen it yet.

[RagingBull]

TBF Lewis Chessum was winning man of the match awards with Nottingham last season

https://x.com/samrobertscomms/status/15 ... 97798?s=46

[westwinds31]

TBF Lewis Chessum was winning man of the match awards with Nottingham last season

https://x.com/samrobertscomms/status/15 ... 97798?s=46

Let's hope we see a few of those in the first team environment.

[sam16111986]

Going back to some of the leavers, I did see a bit of Cusick and Edwards at Notts and whilst I'm not a scout, I didn't see anything from both of those players in a Championship environment that said "these are Premiership ready".

The one Cambridge Rugby fan I know has been raving about Sam Edwards all season. He was rather hoping we'd keep him on and loan him there again next season.

[ABClub]

There will always be what ifs with academy leavers

Look at Lavin and Smith both where gonna be big losses, and honestly could have been great for us we will never know but they also could’ve been at their ceiling already

Smith seemed to hit his ceiling. He's was mobile and aggressive but didn't quite have the physicality his style demanded for Prem rugby.

Lavin could have been an excellent player for us but that horrific injury that kept him out so long seemed to do for him. He's been doing well at Uni level and Saints have used him as a guest player on a few occasions so there's obviously something still there.

Is that Kit Smith? I'd maybe agree. Academies tend to have lots of back row talent. From the same age group you had Tebbatt (briefly with Sale, now in Poland), Muncaster (Edinburgh) and Smith. Bobby Singer was playing lock but probably had the build for back row in senior rugby.

Ollie Smith v2 on the other hand. He looked a brilliant talent at a time when I watched the U18s regularly. That was maybe the most surprised I'd been at someone not getting a dev squad contract. He just stopped playing AFAIK. A shame.

As AW says, there will always ben what ifs. Whenever these discussions happen my mind still goes back to Ed Milne. His desire to study as well as play rugby probably wasn't as well catered for then as it might've been now. He had most the skills you want in a 6 or 8.

[TigerFeetSteve]

There will always be what ifs with academy leavers

Look at Lavin and Smith both where gonna be big losses, and honestly could have been great for us we will never know but they also could’ve been at their ceiling already

Smith seemed to hit his ceiling. He's was mobile and aggressive but didn't quite have the physicality his style demanded for Prem rugby.

Lavin could have been an excellent player for us but that horrific injury that kept him out so long seemed to do for him. He's been doing well at Uni level and Saints have used him as a guest player on a few occasions so there's obviously something still there.

Is that Kit Smith? I'd maybe agree. Academies tend to have lots of back row talent. From the same age group you had Tebbatt (briefly with Sale, now in Poland), Muncaster (Edinburgh) and Smith. Bobby Singer was playing lock but probably had the build for back row in senior rugby.

Ollie Smith v2 on the other hand. He looked a brilliant talent at a time when I watched the U18s regularly. That was maybe the most surprised I'd been at someone not getting a dev squad contract. He just stopped playing AFAIK. A shame.

As AW says, there will always ben what ifs. Whenever these discussions happen my mind still goes back to Ed Milne. His desire to study as well as play rugby probably wasn't as well catered for then as it might've been now. He had most the skills you want in a 6 or 8.

I thought he meant Thom Smith tbh

[sam16111986]

There will always be what ifs with academy leavers

Look at Lavin and Smith both where gonna be big losses, and honestly could have been great for us we will never know but they also could’ve been at their ceiling already

Smith seemed to hit his ceiling. He's was mobile and aggressive but didn't quite have the physicality his style demanded for Prem rugby.

Lavin could have been an excellent player for us but that horrific injury that kept him out so long seemed to do for him. He's been doing well at Uni level and Saints have used him as a guest player on a few occasions so there's obviously something still there.

Is that Kit Smith? I'd maybe agree. Academies tend to have lots of back row talent. From the same age group you had Tebbatt (briefly with Sale, now in Poland), Muncaster (Edinburgh) and Smith. Bobby Singer was playing lock but probably had the build for back row in senior rugby.

Ollie Smith v2 on the other hand. He looked a brilliant talent at a time when I watched the U18s regularly. That was maybe the most surprised I'd been at someone not getting a dev squad contract. He just stopped playing AFAIK. A shame.

As AW says, there will always ben what ifs. Whenever these discussions happen my mind still goes back to Ed Milne. His desire to study as well as play rugby probably wasn't as well catered for then as it might've been now. He had most the skills you want in a 6 or 8.

Thom Smith. Now at Coventry iirc.

[RagingBull]

Thom Smith was the one I had in mind he has had impressive showings for Doncaster but no one has signed him higher yet