LEICESTER TIGERS 2023/24 - KANGAROO MCKELLER: Do you come from a land down under? (Squad thread pt 2)

[Stephen18]

So, the $64,000 question: how to give the youngsters (more) meaningful games? It's old hat but how about reforming the A league? North and South divisions to minimising travel etc costs. A teams to be a mixture of young talent, old timers returning to match fitness after injury, back up bench players needing a run out.

How's about including a couple of Championship teams if there's not going to be any promotion/relegation between Premiership and Championship?

Just wondering why the A league was discontinued.

I’d always been against the American college style system, but I’m starting to believe that, that is probably about the only way to provide constant game time and a constant supply of young player, so almost like an u23’s league but with all premiership sponsoring and link with a college and they set those up as with all the facilities and form a proper league probably and Anglo/Irish league so they can play agains the college where Leinster get all the players through, and at 23 they’re going to be playing agains sizeable people still and they can get an education at the same time.

[CrumblingTerrace]

Oh for the days of 12,769 people heading down to Welford Road on a Monday night to watch the A League Final...

[sk 88]

Why on earth have we let Meredith go? He's a promising 10 who's just led Loughborough to a BUCS title, with a kicking tee record of something mad, like 97%. Wilkinson has had no chances and Pollard will be away for a fair bit of next season. Are we going to persist with Shillcock at 10 for those times?

Does playing university rugby at age 20 mean you're destined to be a Premiership player? What about the other players in the Loughborough team, do they all have pro contracts with Premiership clubs?

I haven't seen him play, apart from that 10 minutes vs Bedford - how promising is he?

Well he's in the England Students team so seems a fairly consensus best 10 at that level. Given that's the level of rugby we arranged for him this season it does seem reasonable to ask what more he could have done to get another year. The best players in BUCS do have a decent record of stepping up. For instance if he didn't have a contract and we announced him as a new signing to the development squad (he's eligible for 4 more years) then most people would be pleased as a future option.

I don't think anyone is suggesting to start him next season, but a firm negative decision is also odd when the next step of consistent loan rugby at Leicester Lions in Nat 1 (the level where Keiron Wilkinson was playing for Sale F.C. at two years older than Meredith would be next season when we signed him) or Nottingham seemed pretty reasonable based on what we've seen so far. I'd be surprised if it was financial from either perspective, certainly ours.

[Tiglon]

Why on earth have we let Meredith go? He's a promising 10 who's just led Loughborough to a BUCS title, with a kicking tee record of something mad, like 97%. Wilkinson has had no chances and Pollard will be away for a fair bit of next season. Are we going to persist with Shillcock at 10 for those times?

Does playing university rugby at age 20 mean you're destined to be a Premiership player? What about the other players in the Loughborough team, do they all have pro contracts with Premiership clubs?

I haven't seen him play, apart from that 10 minutes vs Bedford - how promising is he?

Well he's in the England Students team so seems a fairly consensus best 10 at that level. Given that's the level of rugby we arranged for him this season it does seem reasonable to ask what more he could have done to get another year. The best players in BUCS do have a decent record of stepping up. For instance if he didn't have a contract and we announced him as a new signing to the development squad (he's eligible for 4 more years) then most people would be pleased as a future option.

I don't think anyone is suggesting to start him next season, but a firm negative decision is also odd when the next step of consistent loan rugby at Leicester Lions in Nat 1 (the level where Keiron Wilkinson was playing for Sale F.C. at two years older than Meredith would be next season when we signed him) or Nottingham seemed pretty reasonable based on what we've seen so far. I'd be surprised if it was financial from either perspective, certainly ours.

Good points.

I'm surprised that there's so much disillusionment around letting a player at that level go. Is he in the top 10 promising 20 year old 10s in England?

It feels sometimes as though we are convinced that every Tigers youngster is destined to be a star, if only we would give them game time, but it just isn't that simple.

The fact that we felt the best place for him to develop is University rugby suggests what we feel his current level is. If he then needs a year in Nat 1, and another in the Championship, before we'll even consider him ready for bench duties in the first team, then why not let him go and commit to that fully?

As tigerfeetsteve pointed out, the same happened with Ollie Chessum and it worked well.

I'd hope we keep the relationship with him and if he progresses then perhaps he returns.

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

Oh for the days of 12,769 people heading down to Welford Road on a Monday night to watch the A League Final...

Some half decent players in that picture.

[kpj tiger]

Oh for the days of 12,769 people heading down to Welford Road on a Monday night to watch the A League Final...

This gives me massive nostalgia, this was the generation of players I grew up watching in the A-league on a Monday night after school

[anz3001]

In terms of opportunity, what’s the difference between the A league and Prem Cup?

[TigerFeetSteve]

In terms of opportunity, what’s the difference between the A league and Prem Cup?

Number of games.

Thr difference in how seriously clubs take it. Especially this season most clubs played a full strength side at least once...

Also the frequency of when they are relative to league games, ensuring they are match sharp should a 1st team opportunity arise

[sam16111986]

Does playing university rugby at age 20 mean you're destined to be a Premiership player? What about the other players in the Loughborough team, do they all have pro contracts with Premiership clubs?

I haven't seen him play, apart from that 10 minutes vs Bedford - how promising is he?

Well he's in the England Students team so seems a fairly consensus best 10 at that level. Given that's the level of rugby we arranged for him this season it does seem reasonable to ask what more he could have done to get another year. The best players in BUCS do have a decent record of stepping up. For instance if he didn't have a contract and we announced him as a new signing to the development squad (he's eligible for 4 more years) then most people would be pleased as a future option.

I don't think anyone is suggesting to start him next season, but a firm negative decision is also odd when the next step of consistent loan rugby at Leicester Lions in Nat 1 (the level where Keiron Wilkinson was playing for Sale F.C. at two years older than Meredith would be next season when we signed him) or Nottingham seemed pretty reasonable based on what we've seen so far. I'd be surprised if it was financial from either perspective, certainly ours.

Good points.

I'm surprised that there's so much disillusionment around letting a player at that level go. Is he in the top 10 promising 20 year old 10s in England?

It feels sometimes as though we are convinced that every Tigers youngster is destined to be a star, if only we would give them game time, but it just isn't that simple.

The fact that we felt the best place for him to develop is University rugby suggests what we feel his current level is. If he then needs a year in Nat 1, and another in the Championship, before we'll even consider him ready for bench duties in the first team, then why not let him go and commit to that fully?

As tigerfeetsteve pointed out, the same happened with Ollie Chessum and it worked well.

I'd hope we keep the relationship with him and if he progresses then perhaps he returns.

Alex Dombrant went from Uni rugby to Prem first team. Freddie Steward went from Loughborough Students to starring for us, as did Dan Kelly.

University rugby is a good standard, the BUCS league has teams with professional levels of set up.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Interesting point on wingers and Watson.

According to the salary cap report, not a single winger last season was over 300k. So we know Watson wasn't on more than that last season. This season we have paid I expect considerably less. Now I'm not saying this season he has been value for money but he's clearly not being paid that highly so I don't think it's terrible business IF we get a decent season out of him next season.

Interstingly I can't see him touring with England so hopefully we have him fit and ready for a preseason with his body in tip top shape for the season.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Well he's in the England Students team so seems a fairly consensus best 10 at that level. Given that's the level of rugby we arranged for him this season it does seem reasonable to ask what more he could have done to get another year. The best players in BUCS do have a decent record of stepping up. For instance if he didn't have a contract and we announced him as a new signing to the development squad (he's eligible for 4 more years) then most people would be pleased as a future option.

I don't think anyone is suggesting to start him next season, but a firm negative decision is also odd when the next step of consistent loan rugby at Leicester Lions in Nat 1 (the level where Keiron Wilkinson was playing for Sale F.C. at two years older than Meredith would be next season when we signed him) or Nottingham seemed pretty reasonable based on what we've seen so far. I'd be surprised if it was financial from either perspective, certainly ours.

Good points.

I'm surprised that there's so much disillusionment around letting a player at that level go. Is he in the top 10 promising 20 year old 10s in England?

It feels sometimes as though we are convinced that every Tigers youngster is destined to be a star, if only we would give them game time, but it just isn't that simple.

The fact that we felt the best place for him to develop is University rugby suggests what we feel his current level is. If he then needs a year in Nat 1, and another in the Championship, before we'll even consider him ready for bench duties in the first team, then why not let him go and commit to that fully?

As tigerfeetsteve pointed out, the same happened with Ollie Chessum and it worked well.

I'd hope we keep the relationship with him and if he progresses then perhaps he returns.

Alex Dombrant went from Uni rugby to Prem first team. Freddie Steward went from Loughborough Students to starring for us, as did Dan Kelly.

University rugby is a good standard, the BUCS league has teams with professional levels of set up.

Thing for me is that until the 6N break, Meredith spent most of the BUCS league in the 22 shirt. When Tigers had a break from training and he trained with Loughborough, he won the 10 shirt, impressing to such an extent he got the call up to the national Universities side.

Splitting time between Tigers and Loughborough may have cost him match time this season. It may explain why he wants to be at probably a Nat 1 or Championship club where he can get a shot at earning a 10 shirt.

Nottingham for example have had issues with a fly half this season (mainly injury induced) he may actually get a lot of gametime if he signed there. I fully expect him to be at a local club (even if it's still Loughborough) next year, as he's not finishing his uni course this year. If not contrscted to a prem club he may get more gametime and therefore set him up better going forward.

[Hot_Charlie]

Oh for the days of 12,769 people heading down to Welford Road on a Monday night to watch the A League Final...

Some half decent players in that picture.

And, coincidentally, about half of them became regular top level players over a significant period (given that a couple of them already were!).

[Hot_Charlie]

Alex Dombrant went from Uni rugby to Prem first team. Freddie Steward went from Loughborough Students to starring for us, as did Dan Kelly.

University rugby is a good standard, the BUCS league has teams with professional levels of set up.

Three very different journeys there though. Steward had a stellar junior career and it wasn't as though he was ever going to slip through the cracks. Kelly had a decent junior career, capped at U20 international level, but was dropped by Sale and took a punt on Loughborough/Leicester, which has come good.

Dombrandt was the outlier, taking the very rare path having not been picked up either in an academy (I don't know if he was on a DPP at any point) or age grade representative sides. I don't know why, whether it was physical vs positional development or whatever. Very much the exception to the rule though.

[sk 88]

Does playing university rugby at age 20 mean you're destined to be a Premiership player? What about the other players in the Loughborough team, do they all have pro contracts with Premiership clubs?

I haven't seen him play, apart from that 10 minutes vs Bedford - how promising is he?

Well he's in the England Students team so seems a fairly consensus best 10 at that level. Given that's the level of rugby we arranged for him this season it does seem reasonable to ask what more he could have done to get another year. The best players in BUCS do have a decent record of stepping up. For instance if he didn't have a contract and we announced him as a new signing to the development squad (he's eligible for 4 more years) then most people would be pleased as a future option.

I don't think anyone is suggesting to start him next season, but a firm negative decision is also odd when the next step of consistent loan rugby at Leicester Lions in Nat 1 (the level where Keiron Wilkinson was playing for Sale F.C. at two years older than Meredith would be next season when we signed him) or Nottingham seemed pretty reasonable based on what we've seen so far. I'd be surprised if it was financial from either perspective, certainly ours.

Good points.

I'm surprised that there's so much disillusionment around letting a player at that level go. Is he in the top 10 promising 20 year old 10s in England?

It feels sometimes as though we are convinced that every Tigers youngster is destined to be a star, if only we would give them game time, but it just isn't that simple.

The fact that we felt the best place for him to develop is University rugby suggests what we feel his current level is. If he then needs a year in Nat 1, and another in the Championship, before we'll even consider him ready for bench duties in the first team, then why not let him go and commit to that fully?

As tigerfeetsteve pointed out, the same happened with Ollie Chessum and it worked well.

I'd hope we keep the relationship with him and if he progresses then perhaps he returns.

I think it is a little more general disillusionment with the use of the development squad. We've had a generation of fast developers break through 4 years ago, then not too much since.

There are different views on youth development; broadly speaking there is the "London Irish" view of running a small group of players you think are very high standard and capable of breaking through quickly, and the "Exeter" view of running a very large group that you think have high ceilings go out on loan to the right level for them and then see how they develop with game time. Exeter have successfully developed Joe Simmonds and Harvey Skinner using this method, and with fly halves you do get the added advantage of developing them into your style and system. Meredith reminded me of them, as he has flaws but a high ceiling of potential.

We signed up a very large development squad over the past two seasons, and most are out playing somewhere (George Perkins is playing at Syston in level 6!) which at least to me indicated going down the Exeter route of looking for longer term projects.

You also get salary cap advantages to developing players, so keeping players ticking over if they are moving forward is a pretty reasonable idea. Principally because if you release them and they progress you have to battle against other clubs to re-sign them in future, and if they have a spurt and kick on quickly (or we have an injury run) you can pull them back immediately which you cant do if they're signed to another club.

The presentation of Ollie Chessum's path isn't quite right. He was part of a DPG but wasn't advanced to our 18s group and played with his local club and Notts, Lincs & Derby 18s, before captaining England Counties U-18s which is a group specifically for those not in Premiership academies. He then signed for Nottingham's first team and then for our first team. He probably does qualify for an academy credit as part of that initial DPG, and is a good example for players of not giving up and bouncing back. But he didn't "step away" from a path by choice.

Totally agree with your last sentence, I hope we keep tabs on all three currently without a club as well as guys we released last year like Chester Owen who is getting some good reviews in the Championship with Cov recently.

[markharbtiger]

So, the $64,000 question: how to give the youngsters (more) meaningful games? It's old hat but how about reforming the A league? North and South divisions to minimising travel etc costs. A teams to be a mixture of young talent, old timers returning to match fitness after injury, back up bench players needing a run out.

How's about including a couple of Championship teams if there's not going to be any promotion/relegation between Premiership and Championship?

Just wondering why the A league was discontinued.

I’d always been against the American college style system, but I’m starting to believe that, that is probably about the only way to provide constant game time and a constant supply of young player, so almost like an u23’s league but with all premiership sponsoring and link with a college and they set those up as with all the facilities and form a proper league probably and Anglo/Irish league so they can play agains the college where Leinster get all the players through, and at 23 they’re going to be playing agains sizeable people still and they can get an education at the same time.

Certainly an idea. I also think the NFL style draft system (currently taking place) has some merits. Not perfect (no system is) but combined with a college system that could work. Would require money and will to change, both in short supply I suspect…